Posted on 08/28/2005 11:53:39 AM PDT by LS
Freepers, I have a question (and I know I'm just asking for a lot of joke answers here, but I'm serious.) I've been doing a lot of reading on Islam/the Arab mind/terrorism. I'm especially interested in how concepts of shame and honor play into this.
Using such works as John Laffin, "The Arab Mind Considered" (1975) and Patton Howell's "The Terrorist Mind," (2003), it seems that prior to the mid-1970s at least, suicide was considered an act of dishonor or shame in Arab societies (and, again, I know that all Muslims, esp. Iranians, aren't "Arab"). The point is that it was an act of shame to kill oneself, even when destroying an enemy.
Yet by the 1980s (earlier?) we see so-called "suicide bombers." Does anyone have a take on how the concept of shame came to be ok when applied to suicide disappeared in the Arab world? And when did this occur? So far, the sources I've seen aren't helping. Thanks Freepers. I'll bet I have solid answers within 30 minutes!
What happened is that the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhoods became all-pervasive in the Arab world. One of the intellectual 'lights' of the Muslim Brotherhoods was Sayyed Qutb, who imbibed a great deal of existentialist philosophy, along with a vicious anti-Westernism in the French mould, during a sojourn in the West (including the U.S. where he found 1950's rock-and-roll degenerate).
Qutb fused the existentialist version of 'absolute commitment' as the source of meaning in an absurd world with the classical Islamic understanding of marytrdom (which included death in battle against 'infidels') and argued that the 'absolute commitment' of a suicide attack was a form of absolute islam (submission) to Allah, and thus a form of martyrdom rather than of suicide, which was classically considered haram (forbidden) by Muslims on the
basis of a few Koranic verses.
Incidentally, a Syrian cleric, usually considered a fundamentalist radical, just yesterday or today issued a fatwa upholding the classical understanding and considering suicide attacks as suicide rather than martyrdom-seeking.
(Finally, let's have none of the idiotic 'homicide bomber' nonsense around here: except for ETA which always phones in evacuation notices before blowing Spanish buildings, all bombers are intent on homicide, so adding
'homicide' is vacant of meaning. The distinctively obnoxious feature of the neo-Islamic practice is the use
of youths as guidance systems for bombs, a practice which shows not the extension of conflict from military means to murder, but utter contempt for human life, even one's own and that of one's faithful followers. "Suicide bomber" is the correct name.)
Thanks. Very useful.
Do you have a source for this? Remember where you saw it?
Well, I care, and it matters if this was not acceptable prior to the 1970s, and to understand what changed. Pretty hard to "un-change" something until you know what changed. It's also a helluva lot easier to fight an enemy you know and understand: Sun Tzu said, "If you now the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."
Well, I care, and it matters if this was not acceptable prior to the 1970s, and to understand what changed. Pretty hard to "un-change" something until you know what changed. It's also a helluva lot easier to fight an enemy you know and understand: Sun Tzu said, "If you now the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."
That is REALLY revealing!
Thanks. See, I knew Freepers would be able to answer this question in 30 minutes.
Ok, very good. Thanks. How, exactly, did Qutb become so influential, though?
You're welcome LS.
In islam You can follow all the rules and come before allah, and he can still kick your ass out of heavan. Suicide bombing was a way to get everything you ever did wrong forgiven by killing innocent people to save your worthless ass. So it is the most selfish act out there.
Destroy their belief that they owe allah a sacrifice of human blood and they will turn.
My reccomendation is to tell them that the One True God, sent his Son to die for them so that God could love them without sacrifices.
one word. Arafat.
You are on a difficult mission.
I remember reading some time ago that there is essentially no conept of "truth" in the Arab world. In that world whatever one believes, or can convince others to believe, is "true", regardless of what we call "facts" and "reality".
Good luck.
Yes. His name comes up a lot in this.
Thanks. Identifying a shift in religious thinking is always tough. Like, when did Harvard become secular? Hard to pinpoint a date, although in a 50-year span, you can see it easily.
Do you really think they will listen? I really think that they are under an evil spell or something, their beliefs are directly from SATAN (he's so happy with them)....I know, however, you are right my friend, we are required to do this, and hard, hard it is
I agree with you that they are demonically inspired. Any more so than the Jewish sanhedrin who illegally condemned Christ and stoned Stephen? Or the Romans who crucified Peter? It's a tough mission, but I think this is one of the reasons the Lord has blessed our efforts so far in in Afghanistan and Iraq---it opens them, however quietly, to Christian missionaries.
Your words are comforting. We need a Crusade! Of sorts
No joking, really, I can't see any other way to convert them over to Jesus, WHO IS THE ONLY WAY, but to make their countries a FREE REPUBLIC, free to choose what to believe, free to even hear about The Saviour, so they can choose to follow Him.
Most muslims are muslim because they are terrified, they are slaves
On the Assassins: the order was not suicidal, nor was the Old Man of the Mountain, but suicide was a possibility, depending on the initiate:
"The initiate, after being knocked out by a powerful potion mixed with hashish, would be carried into the garden. When he awoke from his slumber, he would be greeted by a host beautiful teenage girls (houris), who sang and danced and played lovely instruments for him. As he drifted into an ecstatic daze, the girls would go to work on the initiate, giving him a full-body tongue massage, while one girl performed oral sex on him. Eventually, the bedazzled young man would climax into the girl's mouth "as softly and slowly and blissfully as a single snowflake falling." (Robert Anton Wilson, from Prometheus Rising) No wonder Hasan could demand absolute loyalty from his followers, no questions asked . . .
This was only a small part of Hasan's system, which was divided into seven degrees. The Hashishins combined both the exoteric (communicated, "God's Law") and esoteric (subjective, mystical) doctrines of Islam. Sabbah was a noted alchemist, and a student of Sufism, so part of the initiatic curriculum for the future Hashishins involved mastering occult methods for reaching higher planes of consciousness. Of course, they were also taught how to properly kill a man using poison or a dagger. Initiates were trained to learn multiple languages, as well as the dress and manners of merchants, monks and soldiers. Moreover, they were taught to fake beliefs and devotion to every major religion of that era. In this way, an Assassin could pretend to be anyone from a well-to-do merchant to a Sufi mystic, a Christian, or a common soldier.
The Hashishin Order was set up much like your traditional bureaucratic organization. At the top of the hierarchy sat Hasan, the Old Man of the Mountain, who preached absolute devotion to a transcendental God. Below him were the grand priories (enlightened mystics), the propagandists, and finally the fidais, who were the lowest ranking Hashishins. The fidais were self-sacrificers (called "the destroying angels") who were willing to commit any atrocity their master demanded of them, including suicide. They dressed in white tunics with red sashes: colours that represented innocence and blood."
See: http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id985/pg1/index.html
"They perfected the strategy of suicide missions..."
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030105/spectrum/main11.htm
On the Koran/supporting Suras/Hadith/Fatwas, etc:
Read Infiltration by Paul Sperry for more on the Koran, but here's a few Suras:
"[A] martyr’s privileges are guaranteed by Allah; forgiveness with the first gush of his blood, he will be shown his seat in paradise, he will be decorated with the jewels of belief, married off to the beautiful ones, protected from the test in the grave, assured security in the day of judgment, crowned with the crown of dignity, a ruby of which is better than this whole world and its entire content, wedded to seventy-two of the pure Houris (beautiful women of Paradise) and his intercession on the behalf of seventy of his relatives will be accepted.
This hadith source that bin Laden cites puts together different Quranic passages describing Islamic heaven, complete with beautiful virgins (Suras 44:51-56; 52:17-29; 55:46-78), with those describing the immediate reward of heaven for jihadist martyrs (Suras 61:10-12; 4:74; 9:111). (For multiple translations of these “virgin verses” and other sensuous descriptions, go to this site and type in the references: 44:51-56; 52:17-29; 55:46-78.)
Where does this evil doctrine come from? The answer to the question is that Khamenei and bin Laden are not the deepest sources of inspiration for martyrdom bombers. Sad to report, these two evil-doers, as well the faceless human bombs, get their inspiration from the Quran itself.
Suras 61:10-12, 4:74, and 9:111 guarantee Islamic martyrs heaven in an economic bargain. Indeed, these three references explicitly use words that connote buying and selling and signing a contract of sale, and the currency behind the deals is death by martyrdom.
Deducing claims from these verses and using the logic of evil, suicide-homicide bombers with modern and private weapons accept this bargain and throw themselves into battle against disciples of the Great Satan (the US) and the little Satan (Israel). Derived from these verses, the martyrs’ death-acts show their total surrender to Allah; they count their lives as nothing compared with their devotion to him and security in achieving heaven. So Allah is pleased—it is a done deal."
See: http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4297&search=arlandson
Also read up on 12ers: http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring05/Shullick/twelver.htm
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/77813p-71645c.html
And "Heritage: the martyrdom of Hallaj...
The day was April 19,.......Hallaj even beseeched God to let him die accursed. He wanted to die for his brutalized, cruel, diminished , decadent and over religious Muslim
brothers even to become a Kafir, an infidel, to be put to death in order to arouse and unite all the Muslims - to make violance, evil and the unjust apparent .
Perhaps he was ahead of his time, and knowingly happened to step into a domain where blind faith is all what matters. Bustami is right when he says that Hallaj had done away with the difference that exists between a
Saint and a Prophet.
Whether it be Rumi or Khayyam or Iqbal, Hallaj and his ecstatic mysticism has remained an abiding theme of their poetry and philosophy.
"Tu mun shudi; Mun to shudam; Ta kas na go-ed tu deegri,"
(Translation) I want to be You and You me, so that no one is able to say that You are another Being.
For more information on Punishments for apostates in Islam go to :
http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/l5721efc.htm "
http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/sindh-l/archive/her2/msg00602.html
Finally,.......
http://mac.abc.se/home/onesr/ez/isl/0-sbm/IslRulingOnPermiss.html
"The Islamic Ruling On The Permissibility Of Martyrdom Operations " Many viewpoints discussed, including opposing.
I forgot the biggie: Hussein
http://www.yamahdi.com/moharram/articles/articles.htm
By their fruits ye shall know them.
Matt 7: 16
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