Posted on 08/21/2005 6:02:36 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
"Never, ever leave home without it." No, not your American Express card, your sidearm.
This morning, I woke up about 4:15 and was hungry, so I decided to drive to the local 24-hour beanery. The only other customers were a table of 10, intoxicated 20-somethings making alot of noise.
There were 7 muscular young men and three loud-mouthed young women. After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes, I politely asked the waitress to ask them to hold down the noise. All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace.
Her request for quiet lasted about 45 seconds, then the noise and laughter resumed. At that point, I decided to do something.
Bear in mind that I am not an imposing figure. I'm 5'9", mid 50's, and slim. I walked over to the table, and walked completely around it twice. I said, "I'd like y'all to hold down the noise for a while, please." One of the young men started to give me trash-talk but within seconds was elbowed by the guy next to him, who whispered something in his ear. Then everyone at the table said, "Yes, sir, or OK."
What made the difference? Open carry. I was wearing a 9mm semi-auto on my right hip. I never touched it and I made no threats, but it was nevertheless visible.
Of course I believe that you are in an open carry state and therefor within the law as the God given right to protect ones self is amended in your particular state.
I didn't say what he did was right or wrong. I said I would have done it differently yet I am just "Armed Chair QB'n" or playing Monday Morning Quarter Back with my comments etc etc ...just a phrase. Like feed back, after action reports, training, what if etc etc ....
Didn't mean to get yer knickers in a wad by using it. Sorry if I did.......
The problem, to me, is Cholera Joe's circling the table to let everyone take in his armed status. To me that is much more offensive behaviour than loud talking at an all night eatery.
And besides being offensive, it was dangerous to those boisterous diners. There are folks on this thread who say they would have reacted violently to that. Thankfully, no one took that approach and common sense prevailed on all sides, but I think implying deadly force over a casual disagreement is very bad stewardship of a weapon.
What state do you live in? Was this a dream you had?
I think this is a great thread, because many valid ideas have been floated. I think we are all are being given a chance to think, what would I do in that situation?
It is my opinion that CJ never thought the situation all the way through. I believe he was very lucky it turned out well, no harm, no fowl as they say.
The question becomes, did he learn anything?
No, it's what I would think if I was in that situation. It's no attack, it's an assessment. CJ is lucky that someone at that table wasn't someone more agressive. When you go looking for trouble, you WILL find it sooner or later.
Talk is cheap....a 9mm pistol barrel up your nostril will produce a violent result...its called soiling ones pants......
I went further than that. I alsostated that if you approach a person in the wrong way you could be charged with a crime even if you don't say anything threatening and you don't have a gun. Although I admit it is to some degree subjective, at some point one's behavior can be construed to be menacing, whether or not that behavior involves a gun. The person who is armed owes it to himself to err on the side of caution and a lapse of common sense could ruin one's life.
Anytime...
checking the line at 0430 is mandatory, and nothing goes better with, "trooping the line" than a canteen cup full of hot joe, ensuring 50 percent security is maintained. Noise and light discipline, at all costs. Tell the LT to check his gosh darn map under a poncho with a red light, he'll get us all killed.
;->
Stay safe !
The statistics point to "kids" as the most violent of criminals.....
Agreed. But if the other guy had a gun, too, or was a violent drunk...
Cholera Joe seems like a very sensible guy, but I think he was wrong on this. I just can't see introducing a gun into a minor disagreement with strangers.
What drivel. I'm not afraid to tell anyone to shut up, in fact I do it quite often. But I don't need a side arm to do it either. HOW he handled the situation was wrong, and worse, shooting someone because they were noisy gets you prison time. Why do we have an anti gun lobby? Because people use them the wrong way. there is NO WAY CJ would have walked over there and told them to shut up if he DIDN'T have he manhood on his belt. He could have kept in his chair, and asked them nicely to be quite, then if any of them stood up, aproched him, then he could have stood up. That changes the situation, doesn't it. It's HOW he handled the situation that was wrong.
Exactly. CJ's actions give credence to the gun-control lobby's contention that there are too many people too irresponsible to be allowed to own a gun.
"Do you think members of MS-13 would have warned him before plunging a knife in his back and give him a chance to draw first?"
Come on--do I have to be the one to say it? These kids were not MS-13ers, or Black, or even punky whites. They had to be lily-white young professionals who, at a glance, he could tell would not have weapons. I believe this coward would NEVER have threatened anyone who would come back with greater force.
I know, that was the point I was making. My previous post posited that he threatned a bunch of basically good kids who were just a little drunk and being loud. I went on to say that a large group of really bad kids (gang members) would have beat his butt and taken his gun, maybe even killed him.
The other guy being "drunk" and in possession of a weapon....?
Let's just say that the drunk would not have the advantage...plus...his actions "could" be justification for use of deadly force...and I said "could".... Again..we can play whatif all day.
I do agree that deescalation of all deadly situations is the correct course.
Fair enough. However, I would hope anyone that carries a firearm will have done three things, (1) Been to the firing range to make sure they can hit what they aim at, (2) clean the weapon to make sure it will work when needed, and (3) think about when and under what conditions they are prepared to use deadly force.
The time for number 3 is when you make the decision to carry a gun.
I honestly believe CJ would not have pulled a gun or shot anyone for being noisy. But, did the other patrons in the restaurant know that? What was going through their minds is the missing element in this discussion.
As this is not a jury, and CJ has no fear of loss of his life or freedom from this discussion, the rules of evidence are a little less formal.
The subject is not about open carry (which I have no problem with).
The subject is not about telling other patrons they are too loud (they may very well have been).
The subject is how far can you, as a private citizen go, in enforcing your desire for a quiet breakfast?
If CJ had not had a weapon on his hip, the question is would he have done the same thing? Only he can answer.
But, if you take the weapon out of the story, then I would still consider him a fool. There are some things worth getting your ass kicked over (and taking on a table of young drunks is a sure way to have that happen), but this was not one of them.
But the gun is in the story, in fact, it is the very purpose of CJ’s story.
It is the gun he was wearing that allowed him to face up to at table of ten individuals.
My point is he was very lucky, for several reasons. All of them have already been stated, both by myself and others.
If the young men at that table had not shown restraint, for what ever reason, this would have ended up badly for CJ. Regardless of if he survived or not. His world as he knows it would have ended this morning, and for what, because he was annoyed that some young people were making too much noise?
So CJ, if you are still out there man, think about what happen this morning. Consider God gave you a second chance. Please think of what may have been, and formulate in your mind those situations that are worth pulling your gun. When faced with something like this again, think back to this, and ask yourself, is my life in danger? Is someone else’s life in danger? Then perhaps you need not intervene. But it is your decision.
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