Intelligent Design Now Comes to Australia ( Issue is Going International)

Sydney Morning Heralkd ^ | Aug 11,2005 | AAP

[SirLinksalot]

Nelson brings intelligent design debate to Australia

August 10, 2005 - 7:47PM

Education Minister Brendan Nelson supports the teaching of a controversial new theory of creationism, but only if it is balanced by the instruction of established science.

President George Bush has started a debate in the United States over the teaching of evolution in school by suggesting a theory known as "intelligent design" should be taught in the classroom.

It proposes that life is too complex to have developed through evolution, and an unseen power must have had a hand.

Dr Nelson said he had met the proponents of intelligent design, in addition to watching a DVD on the subject.

"Do I think it should be a replacement for teaching the origins of mankind in a scientific sense? I most certainly don't think that it should be," he told the National Press Club in Canberra.

"In fact I would be quite concerned if it were to replace it.

"Do I think that parents in schools should have the opportunity if they wish to for students also to be exposed to this and be taught about it? Yes. I think that's fine."

Intelligent design differs from biblical creationism in that it is not tied to a literal interpretation of the biblical book of Genesis.

Nevertheless, intelligent design points to the role of a creator, and it has become increasingly influential in Christian circles.

AAP

[From many - one.]

"...All my life, I could never wear watches on my arms because within the span of >from two days to two weeks, they would stop..."


So even before the OBE (or NDE) she couldn't wear watches. Hmm-m.

[ndt]

"bad analogy, you suggest the ball will fall indefinitely, I am saying it has yet to be demostrated. you ask for the name of "ground" in which the ball will stop, I do not know said "ground" to DNA mutations."

OK, lets take a specific example then. Radiation is a cause of mutation. It's direct and measurable. To stop mutations, one of many things you would have to do is eliminate radiation. That means we are going to have to turn off the sun. So in one sense you are right, death does in fact stop mutation.

"change doesn't equal NEW information. "

It most certainly does, you are assuming there is an "end goal" by which to judge whether it is information or not. Any increase decrease or change in the sequence of an individual increases the overall complexity of the genome of the breeding population.

"name the mechanism that stops computer viruses from mutating indefinitely. "

Many do not mutate at all. Because computer viruses are true "designed" things, the randomness would need to be imposed by the designer. In the case of viruses that have a true mutation / selection process going on then there is an incredibly simplified version of evolution going on and the main limiting factor (beyond Symantec) would be that their "world" is made of only hundreds of thousands of computers that interact in only very limited ways and not the trillions of living organisms that interact in an astronomically high number of ways.

And you though my analogy was bad.

[atlaw]

"From a website:"

I can't seem to find the proper form for this citation in the Harvard Bluebook, but I think it's supposed to be in large and small caps.

[Gumlegs]

A skeptical view of the NDE

The Christian Research Institite opines on the subject.

This author says NDE "messages are not compatible with biblical Christianity." (I have no opinion on the subject).

This website has links to medical data, Biblical information and prophecy on the subject.

[longshadow]

What I want to know was when was Patton a member of the Joint Chiefs, and when was the "Personal physician" to them born? To be what he claims to have been would require him to be about 90 years old if not more.

[VadeRetro]

LOL, PH! On the other hand, those who disagree that a random process can give rise to purposeful structures/organisms might be inclined to say that it is the neo-Darwinists who are the "mystics" here.

One of my favorite summaries of ID: "If it isn't a miracle, then THAT's a miracle!"

No, we're the ones who don't believe in miracles. You can twist it about to where that's believing in miracles, but it takes some twisting.

[balrog666]

What I want to know was when was Patton a member of the Joint Chiefs, and when was the "Personal physician" to them born? To be what he claims to have been would require him to be about 90 years old if not more.

Embellish a little here, embellish a little there and the next thing you know, the story's full of talking serpents, people-swallowing whales, and people rising from the dead.

[betty boop]

No, we're the ones who don't believe in miracles. You can twist it about to where that's believing in miracles, but it takes some twisting.

VR, perhaps the point of disagreement between you and me is that you don't think there's anything worthwhile in Aristotle's trenchant analysis of causation and I think there is.

[VadeRetro]

You're talking to a guy who invented determinism in High School. OK, I didn't know what to call it and physics had already realized it has its limits.

[Dimensio]

And what about the one's that come back with physical proof of a problem they never had before?

What "physical proof"? And what about the ones who didn't come back with any such thing?

[flevit]

wouldn't the interactions of "fewer" things only slow down the process not limit it?

Symantec would be a "selection" process would it not...those that mutate to avoid symantec would thrive while those that do not would be selected against

no, altering existing information is still change, that doesn't mean its NEW information.

[bobdsmith]

semantic is the word you want, Symantec is an anti-virus company. Or perhaps you meant syntax?

[ndt]

"wouldn't the interactions of "fewer" things only slow down the process not limit it?"

In the same way that we are limited by things such as physics, chemistry, and our selection of mates, a computer virus is limited by its "reality". I would not expect to see them crawling out of your computer anytime soon (Matrix fantasy land aside).

"Symantec would be a "selection" process would it not...those that mutate to avoid symantec would thrive while those that do not would be selected against "

Yes it is and yes they do.

"no, altering existing information is still change, that doesn't mean its NEW information. "

If I have a page with ATTAGC and then one T changes to ATCAGC, is that not novel? What if it becomes ATTAGCC, is that not only novel but new?

If I have a book full of letters and every second one of those letters are changed randomly, I would only get the occasional word by sheer luck. However what would happen if those random letters were subject to a test of fitness (natural selection) whereby they were graded on their conformance to the rules of English grammar and spelling. The letter "ing" were deemed more fit that say "zzt" and the ones that were less fit were slowly culled from the herd?

Like many, you are stopping at the idea of random, thats just step one. It's just the source of new stuff. It is the shaping of the crude form created by randomness through a process of removal. Mutation without natural selection is like a lump of stone without a mason. And to preempt the inevitable, the mason does not need to be sentient, just follow the rules. I'm not an artist, but even I can paint by numbers.

[ndt]

"semantic is the word you want, Symantec is an anti-virus company. Or perhaps you meant syntax?"

Strange line of logic that got us here, but we were actually talking about computer viruses so Symantec is correct, they produce anti-virus software.

[bobdsmith]

oh my apologies

[Ready2go]

Howdy there Gumlegs;

Thank you very much for the links. :)

As I said on another thread...with me being a Christian...I only believe in the NDE's that line up with God's Words.

And not everything here does:

http://www.near-death.com/index.html

Like I don't believe in reincarnation "now" (but I use to when I was a athesist)...because the Bible says:

Hebrews 9
27 And just as it is destined that each person dies only once and after that comes judgment,

28 so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again but not to deal with our sins again. This time he will bring salvation to all those who are eagerly waiting for him.

But I firmly believe that God is allowing folks to have NDE's to serve as a warning to all the unbelievers out there. He doesn't want anyone to be lost.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed and who lived each day in luxury.

20 At his door lay a diseased beggar named Lazarus.

21 As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.

22 Finally, the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,

23 and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham.

24 “The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames.’

25 “But Abraham said to him, ‘son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish.

26 And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. Anyone who wanted to cross over to you from here is stopped at its edge, and no one there can cross over to us.’

27 “Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, send him to my father’s home.

28 For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won’t have to come here when they die.’

29 “But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to.’

30 “The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins.’

31 “But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’

Not that any of them will listen as we were already told.

[betty boop]

You're talking to a guy who invented determinism in High School.

I'd love a demonstration of how you did it, VR. Seriously.

[Chickensoup]

Hey, if someone claims that a structure with 40 elements is irreducible, and someone comes along with a structure with 33 elements, the original claim is definitely in question.


If I recall, the meat of the argument was not about specific numbers, it was about the fact that the numbers were large and complex. That requiring the presence of A through Z to make something work doesnt change things if something else only requires A through V.


As I said, I am not an expert. I have read a couple of books on the subject... Have you read the book. Your arguments sound like they are based on some other source other than the book I read.

[Chickensoup]

Incredulity can be a pretty limited place to stand.

A bit like flat-earthers.

There was a poor GP in Australia who turned the medical world on its collective ear when he wrote a paper in the early 90's showing that certain ulcers, heretowith considered to be stress or acid related, were actually bacterial infections...thus obliterating over one hundred year's of emphatic belief that "no bacteria could live through the stomach's acidic environment long enough to do any significant damage." Just because something is outside the envelope, does not necessarily make it wrong.

[Chickensoup]

Also, much medical research is buttressed by evolutionary theory.


How?