Posted on 05/02/2005 7:25:14 AM PDT by worldclass
Noting that in his Good Friday homily soon-to-be pope Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger condemned the "filth there is in the church," Wheeler believes the pontiff "will not tolerate [homosexuality's] presence in his church."
(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...
Godwin's Law???????????
>>I got your point the second time around, netmilsmom, but admit that double negative almost got me! :-) <<
I'm Polish, forgive me!
I think he must be an ex pug. He has that "my nose has been broken so many times it will never pass air again" sort of voice. Like Jesse Ventura.
I have long suspected that Phelps is a liberal plant. His "theology" is completely wacko. God does NOT hate "gays"; he loves them enough that he wants them to change!!!! I do not known whether to believe his ties to Algore, because your source is very suspect.
As an Evangelical Orthodox Lutheran, I especially resent Phelps. He acts, look, talks, and smells nothing like us, and he hates us, too, for reasons that have nothing to do with homosexuality. But we get tarred with the same brush as him, especially in the ELCA and here in our "blue state". He is a gross caracature of what a "homophobic conservative Christian" is supposed to be, but we are about as far away from what he is as is possible.
Actually I take back my previous statement about the Episcopal Mass. We upgraded the mass about the time the RCC went to english and the new order (nostra novus ordum) is crap. I go to the abbreviated, completely modern version because I don't want to go to mass at 11:00 in the morning. At 11:00 we have incense, a psalm, a gloria, and a gospel procession, and the liturgy retains some "thees" and "thous" but it is still way watered down.
Sorry, but the FACTS still don't match up with your nice theory. Last time I attended Mass with my Roman Catholic wife, the entire service was in English. And it has been that way since we were married 35 years ago.
Face it---Latin is a dead issue (and language) except in the hierarchy of the Church, and a few traditionalists longing wistfully for the past.
Our old (ECUSA) parish had separate teams for boys and girls to deal with the "ickiness" problem. Here, they don't seem to mind, or at least they don't demonstrate it (Deacon Tom would express displeasure if they did.)
The girls who would do the whole flitting and flirting thing (or heaven forfend, giggle in the sanctuary) are quite discouraged by the "Soldiers of Christ" culture among the altar servers (and I'm sure that's deliberate - it accomplishes the desired goal without a lot of friction). The ones who are left aren't gigglers (and again, Deacon Tom would get 'em if they dared.)
I think a lot is affected by the top-down leadership. When the deacon in charge, the rector, and the senior altar servers cultivate a serious, holy attitude, it permeates all the way down the line. Even our littlest kids are good as gold, you can see them fidget, then remember they're not supposed to, and stop themselves.
Where it is impossible to have schools of singers or where there are not enough choir boys, it is allowed that "a group of men and women or girls, located in a place outside the sanctuary set apart for the exclusive use of this group, can sing the liturgical texts at Solemn Mass, as long as the men are completely separated from the women and girls and everything unbecoming is avoided. The Ordinary is bound in conscience in this matter." (Musicae Sacrae, 74)
I think the "outside the sanctuary" is the important bit here. And it would seem that as late as Pius XII the all-male choir was still viewed as the ideal.
LOL! I absolutely agree! Back in the 70s, one of our curates had the bright idea of roping off the side aisles and back pews of the lower church to force everyone at daily Mass to sit together. (Some grumpily acceded; others of us just ducked under the ropes to sit where we always did.) It didn't last long. It helped that the pastor thought it was as stupid an idea as I did!
Yes to both.
The 'in-sanctuary' choir was commonplace in monestaries, but not in parish churches (at least around Milwaukee.)
And, yes, the all-male choir was/still IS considered ideal--see Mgr. G. Ratzinger's Domcapellechor...
Forced socialization never works. In political systems or church pews.
I think that part isn't fair.
I wish!
The all-male sound is different (and delightful), but we practically have to use clubs and a net to get guys into the choir. Our new choirmaster did hire a couple of male staff singers, to give us a nucleus around which to attract men. And it seems to be working.
Unfortunately, at least around here, Catholics have a reputation for Bad Music. (Hangover from the Kum-ba-ya, happy clappy days I guess, although it could also be due to some of those sicky-sweet May Crowning hymns . . . the Barry Manilow of the Victorian era . . . ) But our new choirmaster is doing great things, reintroducing chant and Renaissance polyphony, and even the congregation is starting to sit up and take notice.
TO make my point I meant to post the beginning of the new and old General Confessions:
New:
Almighty God, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have not loved You with our whole hearts, we have not loved our neighbors as our selves.
Old:
Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Maker of all things, Judge of all men; We acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickedness, Which we, from time to time, most grievously have committed, By thought, word, and deed, Against thy Divine Majesty, Provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against us.
There's a little bit of a difference in tone, eh? First one doesn't hardly even admit to anything. The new Eucharist leaves me a little cold.
I've noticed a lot of Renaissance lately. At least in the parishes where the music directors actually know something about music. Interesting that it's also popping up in other places. Maybe revenge of the trained musician?????
Things we didn't know . . . a sorta happy-clappy guy was in charge, and our current choirmaster was the assistant organist . . . real quiet, kept to himself . . . turns out, he's got a doctorate in music (organ performance, I think) from Juilliard, and he has forgotten more about early church music than I ever knew . . .
He is a genius . . . he plays like an angel, he can sing tenor, alto AND soprano, he composes . . . every choir practice, he just starts talking -- about performance techniques, history, medieval music notation, you name it -- and pearls of wisdom just drop. I learn something new EVERY choir practice. It's just fabulous.
>> Face it---Latin is a dead issue (and language) except in the hierarchy of the Church, and a few traditionalists longing wistfully for the past.<<
I respectfully disagree.
Latin is huge in the homeschool community. I teach my five and seven year olds Latin.
The only reason why Latin has been put on the back burner in the RC church is because the priests were either discouraged from using it or flying libs themselves.
I posted a thread on Catholic Answers forums whether Latin was used in their Liturgy. I had MANY people stating that a part of their Mass was in Latin. These are not TLM masses! It hadn't been that way 5 years ago. B16 is going to cause many more conservative priests to go into the parishes. The young conservative Priests, with the Lavendar Mafia out of the seminaries, will bring the traditions back to our parishes.
I think you will see Latin come back. Smart parents understand that a child knowing Latin knows the roots of English words and will understand Medical and Biological terms better.
mark to note info :-)
Cheers! And i love the quote!
Your "reality" is obviously universal. Thanks for your opinions. They are well informed and quite subjective. Bye.
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