Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism (Pope Bound for Hell).

Knoxville News-Sentinel Co. ^ | April 13, 2005 | JEANNINE F. HUNTER

[Dean Baker]

Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005

NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.

"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."

The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."

The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.

"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."

It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.

"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.

He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."

Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."

Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.

"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.

James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.

"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."

Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.

"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.

Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "

He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.

Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.

[D Edmund Joaquin]

God-Fearing woman,

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Chunga]

I can't do anything with my "disingenuous charge," as I haven't made a "charge" at all.

[BriarBey]

I agree and very well said! But we are moving in to a time when we will also have to repent for our idolotry and paganistic worship. Because He said ..."You will worship me in spirit and in truth." Not in rituals, not in idols, not in traditions, and not thru men. Christianity as we know it is about to open her arms to ALL religions. True believers will be persecuted because they will not join as the Bride of Christ, with the whore, whom has sold her soul to the state, for money and can now be controlled by the state thru a tax exempt contract. Render unto Caesar what is Caesars and unto God what is God's.....Jesus paid taxes.

But it will be proclaimed as an attack on Christianity....what perilous times we live in.

[safisoft]

Compared to that, most Protestant doctrinal distinctives are Johnny-come-lately's.

I read and study Torah in Hebrew. Compared to that, most Greek anteniceans are Johnny-come-nevers.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Yes, if you're a car! And a Christian does better in fellowship with other believers...

... but what makes you a believe is not a Church.

[SALChamps03]

I suppose their definition of a personal relationship with Christ has to involve other people huh?

[safisoft]

Is she the "Queen of Heaven"? Yes.

Well, there you go. At least you are the honest one on this thread.

The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. Do they provoke Me to anger?' says the L-RD. 'Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?' Jeremiah 7:18

[BriarBey]

How many elect will there be again? I don't remember.
*****

There is only a remnant axl....a small piece of a whole.
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Its not an easy race to run.....the rivers of living water flow FROM the throne of God...if you are going with the flow you are being moved farther and farther from the Father. The swim up stream is not an easy one, takes effort and a heart felt commitment, not just rituals and rules. Its a marriage and not like the shallow ones we see so often in this country.

Its a committment so deep, you will die for it, rather than deny it.

[aculeus]

a church marquee message

If a marquee collapses is it a marquee manque?

[D Edmund Joaquin]

it's really a great sadness that so many just do not understand the 7th commandment, or why, on the tablets, it's opposite the 2nd

[safisoft]

As to your other question, the Catholic Church decided which books would become part of the canonical Bible.

Tell me, are there sixty six books in your Bible? Well, thirty-nine of them are in the Hebrew TaNaKh, and I can assure you they did not get there by the "church". I keep hearing this "we gave you the Bible" tripe from RCs. Sorry dude, ALL of the writers of the Bible were JEWISH. And it is pure and simple arrogance to claim that the Catholic "church" canonized the Bible. We predate you by over a thousand years.

[DBeers]

St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture.

???

Saint Jerome never stated deuterocanonicals were uninspired. He simply argued they not be in the canon -there is a big difference. I suggest if you spend some time researching the issue you will find several quotations of Saint Jerome referring to the deuterocanonicals as "Scripture" -in fact, Saint Jerome often quotes the deuterocanonicals in his writings.

Although Saint Jerome believed the deuterocanonicals were inspired he argued, rather, that they should not be in the canon, which in his day, different Churches held to different canons, for a canon was what was used in the liturgy. Before the uniform liturgy was promulgated throughout the Universal Church each Church had its own liturgy, which means it would select which Sacred Scriptures to be read during Mass; as such, there was no universal lectionary like there exists since Trent and exists today.

Saint Jerome believed that some of the deuterocanonicals were harder to understand, and as such he did not find them appropriate for the liturgy and as already stated, he never argued against their inspiration. Regardless, Saint Jerome humbly and obediently submitted to the authentic authority of the Church AND included the deuterocanonicals in his Vulgate translation -hardly something one that thought something uninspired would do!

[maestro]

St. John 14:6

Says it all period!

...any 'other' way.....etc., is a devil helper jesus and NOT the Saviour Jesus!

Romans 10:17

[mabelkitty]

So have I.
Boy will they be shocked to find out my name is in the Lord's book. I bet yours is, too.

[DBeers]

I keep hearing this "we gave you the Bible" tripe from RCs. Sorry dude

You construct straw man and boldly knock it down -whoopee!

Your straw man does not address the statement: "the Catholic Church decided which books would become part of the canonical Bible"

Other than attempting to toot your own horn at the expense of others -you contribute nothing to this discussion.

[GraceCoolidge]

I think my puzzlement may stem from my limited understanding of what "born again" is meant when one refers to a "born again Christian." As you note, Catholics tend not to use the term (certainly I've never heard it applied to a Catholic). As you say, to be baptized is to be "born from above" and is about "spiritual birth" and entry into the spiritual family of the Church. But here is my confusion: born again Christians already have been baptized before being born again, right? To a born again Christian, what is the difference between someone who was born again and someone who was baptized? Or is there one?

I don't disagree with your statements, but using that definition, everyone baptized would be born again. When I hear someone refer to a "born again Christian," I thought they were referring to a spiritual process apart from baptism. As far as Catholics are concerned, I don't disagree that one's baptism is a spiritual birth, but to me (and I think to most people), that isn't what is meant when you refer to a "born again Christian."

[lonestar]

What more would one expect from an independent Baptist church on a Tennessee hilltop? My guess is "Baptist" merely indicates that this church believes in immersion baptism. It is not a Southern Baptist church.

[safisoft]

Why do you put "church" in quotation marks. Don't you believe that the Catholic Church is a "church?"

The word in Greek is ekklesia. It means a "called out assembly". It is a word that is used repeatedly in the Greek Septuagint for the congregation Israel - 1,700 years before there was ever a "Catholic church". Ekklesia is not a hierarchial man-made organization. The ekklesia is made up of all those who worship the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob. The word "church" is a word that likely comes from the scot kirke and relates more to paganism. I put "church" in quotes because I am not refering to ekklesia, but a man-made, man-centered organization that has no semblance of Biblical authority or perspective. Don't worry, I am as hard on Protestants in this regard as I am on Catholics. In my opinion, when the Protestant Reformation began, their greatest error was in not going far enough. They should have renounced everything inherited from paganism and returned to the Judaic and Hebraic roots of the faith.

[safisoft]

the Catholic Church decided which books would become part of the canonical Bible

You can't read. The Septuagint was translated from Hebrew to Greek in 270 BCE. - which predates the Roman "church" by about 500 years. The same thirty-nine books in your "Old Testament" are in the Septuagint. The "church" canonized nothing except your dreams. Sheesh, you guys are the greatest revisionists ever. I can tell you that my copy of the Masor has not the slightest hint of Roman Catholicism in it. It was not canonized by the Roman church. You own Judaism 2/3s of your Bible, bud. If it had not been for the Ben Asher family Jerome wouldn't have been able to SPELL Israel.

[sully777]

"...all those who don't accept Christ are still under the Law."

What do you call a christian that obeys the Law that Chirst paid the penalty for? Unchristian? That seems pretty odd and judgmental.

---

"So go get circumcised, you heathen!"

---

I know you said that in jest. To be honestt, I was circumcised though I was born into an agnostic family (seems the medical establishment nipped all the guys back in the day because uncircumcised males have this problem with schmegma that may cause serious health problems. That is until some homosexuals began suing the hospitals). Dr. Drew from Loveline believes that uncircumcision is a root cause of much sexual problems and disease, and actually suggests adult males consider circumcision, though it is not a minor surgical procedure. I don't think Dr. Drew is anything but an agnostic or atheist. I know Adam Carolla is an atheist.

---

"While this sounds easy, the Christians must also follow the Holy Spirit --- what I call the gut feeling of right and wrong --- which is sometimes quite a bit harder than the Law."

---

A gut feeling of right or wrong. Gut feeling? Like the feeling you get when you want to buy onion rings, you buy them, and your gut tells you it was wrong. Some call that gas.

Seems that simple people would just look up the law. "Should I lay with my neighbor's dog? Says here in Leviticus that I shouldn't. But I'm not under that law...and I'm under grace." Boom. Instant perv but a saved perv? It has to be more complicated than a gut feeling. That leaves much room for interpretation.

---

"...as a Christian one must strive to NOT to sin. You will fail. So repent and try again. With God's help you will do better..."

Define sin. A standard pocket dictionary in front of me says that sin is breaking the law. Actually, it says willful breaking of the law, which means that the lawbreaker knows the law and reasons he will break it.

Repent? What is the definition of repent? Dictionary says it is to feel sorrow, feel negligent about responsibility, and change your mind. Change demands not doing the sin. Sin, as we learned from the dictionary, is breaking law. Therefore, changing your mind to not sin means obeying. Obeying what? Law or gut feelings which could easily pass (forgive me) for gas, or subconscious delusion? Seems that the dictionary says you should obey the law. But if you obey the law are you are law keeper, or a legalist. If I refuse to deal drugs, I suppose I'm being a legalist.

---

It seems to me, as an outsider looking into your world, that you want to obey God and Christ as a christian. But you don't want to obey everything which you deposit as "the law done away." So you say Christ did away with the Law, which you don't really mean, because if Christ did away with the Law, then this all a moot exercise in circle jerking=no law=no need for savior=no savior=nothingness. And I know from your posted response, that you don't mean that.

So what are the exact laws you don't want to be under? You seem to gravitate toward dietary laws. I assume you love monkey brains, who doesn't? Or blowfish? Octapus fried in its ink? Horse bladder? Pigs feet? Frogs legs? Slugs? Balls of a rhino? Fried cat meat in moo goo gai pan? Does God say its wrong? From a scientific standpoint, are the dietary laws smart or absolutely stupid. Because if God made these laws and then says they're stupid, that makes God look foolish, or better still God looks like John Kerry, "I said it, then I took it back."

You mention cleaning laws. Why don't you want to be clean? Or are you talking about showing yourself to the priest if you have a pussing boil? Perhaps you don't like the one about remaining in a segragated quarentee because you have a highly contageous disease? Oh wait, you want to have sex when you are or your wife is in menses. Well, I guess breaking these laws could cause problems and diseases down the road that you may or may not blame God for allowing. Seems like God is covering all the bases, like anyone writing up a good contract. I guess it's like an ancient national health plan. But it seems like these laws are still taught today in medical schools too. Not sure where you're driving at.

Votives, offerings, and let's see... new moons, sabbath day, and days like Purum, Yom Kippur, Succouth, and Rosh Hoshanah. Can't keep those days because they are old covenant? Since you are not under the Law, I assume you don't keep Easter, Christmas, or St John the Baptist Day either? It's all unnecessary for salvation. I bet you work every day of the week and never attend church. Because God's not interested in false pretenses of religion. It's what is in the heart that counts. Church is for those pretentious altar boys and women trying to look their best. It's all a glamour show and wannabe priests.

---

Why do we need anything, particularly priests, popes, or even this Baptist pastor when God is in our hearts and everywhere. And why continue the charade of obedience if the Law is done away. Seems hypocritical and destructive to our delicate senses. Which gets back to my other post. No law=no savior=no need to live according to a particular religion=no nothing.

Unless we should obey. I mean think about it, if we are required to obey the law we broke and were pardon from breaking (prisoners call this reformed) then this whole salvation idea makes more logical sense.

Either way, the law in the Bible, as it is written, is the mind of God. If we figured out that God exists then all we must figure is if the mind of God should be obeyed or ignored. Seems like a simple plug in.