Same-Sex Marriage - A Threat To Whom?

12-23-04 | Ernie1241

[Ernie.cal]

I have read many messages which object to same-sex marriage but I am still waiting to learn what specific adverse consequences opponents of gay marriage anticipate to result from its legalization.

In other words, suppose same-sex marriage becomes law during 2005. By 2010 or 2015 what specific indisputable adverse consequences to society do opponents predict to occur?

With respect to those critics of same-sex marriage who refer to "God's law" and "procreation" --- do they believe that heterosexual couples who cannot have children, or who do not wish to have children, should also NOT be allowed to marry?

The essence of a free society is choice---including the option of choosing private behavior that does not cause harm to another person. The alternative is coercion, i.e. using the coercive (and punitive) power of government through laws, bureaucrats, and police to dictate what choices are permissible.

Do opponents of same-sex marriage propose that our society should begin identifying areas where choices involving human intimacy should be regulated by government entities and thus dilute our commitment to the values inherent in a free society?

[ohioman]

Ern please stay in California as we do not need fag-lovin freaks such as yourself in normal parts of America.

[Darksheare]

Sounds like a good Prescription to me.

[Ernie.cal]

No Darksheare, citing facts and figures is not hate. Many times "facts" are not seriously in dispute but the underlying tone with which those facts are presented reveals more than the facts themselves.

For example: it is entirely possible that you and I could read "factual" information in a pamphlet or book authored by Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao tse Tung, or a KKK leader but I doubt that either of us would be willing to associate ourselves with the overall perspective associated with those persons---NO MATTER HOW MANY INDIVIDUAL FACTS they accurately cite.

[Darksheare]

But people have cited information that is factual, not fabrication.
And you say it's hate.
Do try to have a nice life.
It must be extremely hard to do so when one sees life in such an inverted fashion.

[scripter]

You told DirtyHarryY2K: So much hate. Seek help.

But I didn't see any hate in his posts. Sometimes when facts disagree with our worldview we might find ourselves offended, but perhaps for all the wrong reasons.

Many times "facts" are not seriously in dispute but the underlying tone with which those facts are presented reveals more than the facts themselves.

If I have presented facts or information in a tone you find offensive then I apologize. I'm human, busy, and tired of all the misinformation, so I do what I can with the time I have available.

What I find very helpful is reading what former homosexuals have to say on the subject and I encourage you to do the same.

[Ernie.cal]

But I didn't see any hate in his posts. Sometimes when facts disagree with our worldview we might find ourselves offended, but perhaps for all the wrong reasons.

Perhaps you and I have a different understanding of the full scope of the term "hate" or "hateful". Most dictionaries include "intense animosity" as a definition. If you consult a thesaurus, you will find these terms to be equivalent in meaning to "hate": (1) "extreme hostility or dislike", (2) "abhorrence", (3) "loathing".

Consequently, when a total stranger refers to another person's behavior or inclinations as "perversion" (see message 529) and/or when such a person prefers to characterize entire categories of other human beings he doesn't even know in the WORST POSSIBLE manner (see, for example, message #532 wherein Dirty Harry describes gay parents as "two selfish perverts that place their sexual preference over the needs of a child" ---- then, YES, it is not unreasonable to describe such group libel appropriately as "hate".

Finally, you folks might find this interesting:

Teens With Same-Sex Parents Well-Adjusted

MONDAY, Nov. 15 (HealthDayNews) --

Adolescents who have two moms as parents are no different from teens growing up with a mother and a father, a new study finds.

On measures of psychosocial well-being, school functioning, and romantic relationships and behaviors, the teens with same-sex parents were as well adjusted as their peers with opposite-sex parents. The authors found very few differences between the two groups. A more important predictor of teens' psychological and social adjustment, they found, is the quality of the relationships they have with their parents.

"This is the first study that has looked at adolescents with same-sex parents in a national sample, and it shows clearly across a wide range of variables that they're doing pretty well," said study author Charlotte J. Patterson, a professor of psychology at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville.

The research, published in the November issue of Child Development, draws data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, a school-based study of the health-related behaviors of kids in grades 7-12.

Dr. Ellen C. Perrin, a professor of pediatrics at Tufts School of Medicine and an expert on the development of children with gay or lesbian parents, said that few studies have focused on adolescents of same-sex parents. What data there is has been subject to attack. Critics complain that the studies reflect researcher bias and non-random participant selection.

"In this case, neither of those critiques are valid," Perrin said. The new study uses data from a broad population-based survey conducted for entirely different reasons. "That makes it very clean, so to speak; no one could argue that there was any bias involved."

Estimates of the number of teens living with same-sex parents are hard to come by. As of 1990, 6 million to 14 million children were living with a gay or lesbian parent, says the National Adoption Information Clearinghouse, a service of the U.S. Administration for Children and Families.

Perrin believes that a majority of these children were born into heterosexual families. "Only recently have there been increasing numbers of kids born or adopted into already stable same-sex couples," she explained.

The study sample included 44 children, 12 to 18 years old, parented by same-sex couples and an equivalent number of peers with opposite-sex parents. The two groups had an equal number of girls and boys and other similarities, including ethnic background, family income, and parents' level of education.

Overall, researchers found no significant differences between the two groups. Teens with two moms, for example, were neither more nor less likely than their peers with two opposite-sex parents to report having been involved in a romantic relationship during the past year or ever having sex. Both groups were generally well-adjusted, with relatively high levels of self-esteem, relatively low levels of anxiety, and good achievement in school.

The study reveals a minor difference: "The kids of same-sex parents said that they feel more connected at school," Patterson said. In other words, they felt their teachers were more open to them, and that people at school were fair and cared for them. "I think that may be a chance finding, frankly," she said.

While family type wasn't a factor in how teens fared, family relationships were. When parents reported more positive relationships with their teenagers, for instance, the teens reported lower levels of depressive symptoms.

"The qualities of teenagers' relationships with their parents are much better predictors of their overall well-being," Patterson noted.

[scripter]

Consequently, when a total stranger refers to another person's behavior or inclinations as "perversion"

I'm curious - how do you define perversion?

Here's how Merriam Webster defines perversion:

One entry found for perversion. Main Entry: per·ver·sion Pronunciation: p&r-'v&r-zh&n, -sh&n Function: noun 1 : the action of perverting : the condition of being perverted 2 :perverted form; especially : an aberrant sexual practice especially when habitual and preferred to normal coitus

Using the above definition, would you say it's correct to refer to homosexuality (behavior) as perversion? Besides how the dictionary defines perversion, how do you think former homosexuals refer to their previous behavior? If they said it was perverted, would you give any weight to their opinion?

BTW, we've seen the other works of Charlotte Patterson on FR here and here - she's obviously pushing the homosexual agenda. And Perrin references Patterson's work.

Freeper EdReform has done some extensive work on the subject here, demonstrating the severe homosexual bias in the APA and Perrin. Please read that entire link for an excellent education on the subject.

Also, "Studies demonstrate that there is, in fact, a difference between non-heterosexual and heterosexual parenting. Children raised by non-heterosexual parents are placed at risk. They are more apt to experience gender and sexual confusion; they are more apt to become promiscuous; they are at greater risk of losing a parent to AIDS, substance abuse or suicide. They suffer more depression and other emotional difficulties. They are also more likely to engage in same-sex behavior." Source.

There's more. Much more. The problem with your position is you have only partial information, and that's a dangerous position to be in. We've been studying this issue for years and have seen it all.

Again, I very much encourage you to read what former homosexuals have to say on the matter.

[Ernie.cal]

ADOPTION: Adoption of children by homosexuals cannot be considered in the best interest of the child. NO child should be deprived of their natural basic right to have BOTH a Father AND a Mother for the sake of two selfish perverts that place their sexual preference over the needs of the child.

Since you claim to be interested in "facts" and "studies", here are some you may have overlooked:

(1) Bailey, J.M., Bobrow, D., Wolfe, M., & Mikach, S. (1995). Sexual orientation of adult sons of gay fathers. Developmental Psychology, 31, 124-129.

Reports the result of a study of 55 gay or bisexual men who had a total of 82 sons at least 17 years of age. The fathers were recruited through advertisements in gay publications. Eighty-nine percent of the fathers identified themselves as gay. The rest identified themselves as bisexual. More than 90% of the sons whose sexual orientation could be rated were heterosexual. The sexual orientation of the sons was not positively correlated with the amount of time the sons lived with their fathers. The authors conclude that the available evidence fails to provide empirical grounds for denying child custody to lesbian and gay parents because of concern about the effect on the child's sexual orientation.

(2) Bigner, J.J., & Jacobsen, R.B. (1989). The value of children to gay and heterosexual fathers. Journal of Homosexuality, 18 (1/2), 163-172.

Reports on similarities and differences between 33 heterosexual fathers (aged 26-55 years) and 33 matched gay fathers who responded to the value of children questionnaire. Overall scores for both groups did not differ. Significant differences were found in two sub-scales (Tradition-Continuity-Security and Social Status). Gay fathers reported that their marriage and family orientation reflected a traditional attitude toward family life and served to protect against societal rejection. Sample reported on was a self-selected group of gay fathers attending a self-help group. Comparison group was constructed from a larger sample of men who are fathers, without knowledge of the men's sexual orientation.

(3) Bigner, J.J., & Jacobsen, R.B. (1989). Parenting behaviors of homosexual and heterosexual fathers. Journal of Homosexuality, 18(1/2), 173-186.

An empirical study of the differences and similarities between 33 gay fathers and 33 nongay fathers as reflected in their responses to the Iowa Parent Behavior Inventory. Fathers of both types were quite similar on degree of involvement and level of intimacy with children. Gay fathers were generally more strict, but were also more responsive, and took more care in socializing their children than their nongay counterparts. The convenience nature of the sample of gay fathers (all drawn from a support group for gay fathers) makes generalizations to other gay fathers problematic. No data are available on the sexual orientation of the control group drawn at random from a pre-existing group of study participants. Makes no claim to generalizability, recognizing the limits of their sampling procedures, yet speculates on the nature of the differences between the two groups, suggesting the more socially desirable behavior of the gay fathers may result from perceived pressure to be a "good" father, which they feel more acutely than their nongay counterparts

(4) Flaks, D. K., Ficher I., Masterpasqua, F., & Joseph, G. (1995). Lesbians choosing motherhood. A comparative study of lesbian and heterosexual parents and their children. Developmental Psychology, 31, 105-114.

Compares a group of 15 White lesbian couples living together with their 3-9 year old children born to them through artificial insemination with a matched sample of heterosexual parents and their children. A variety of assessment measures including the Child Behavior Checklist, Teacher's Report Form, the Spanier Dyadic Adjustment Scale, the Parent Awareness Skills Survey and either the WPPSI-R or WISC-R were used to measure the children's cognitive functioning and behavioral adjustment as well as the parents' relationship and parenting skills. Results revealed no significant differences between the two groups of children. Both groups of parents showed similar dyadic adjustment. However, the lesbian couples exhibited more parenting awareness skills than did the heterosexual couples.

(5) Green R. (1982). The best interests of the child with a lesbian mother. Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, 10, 7-15.

Reviews theoretical models and empirical data concerning whether a homosexual parent or two homosexual individuals in parenting roles increases the chance that children will have a homosexual orientation. Also describes court evaluations of adults and children in lesbian custody cases. Fifty-eight children (aged 3-11 years) being raised by lesbian mothers were compared with 43 demographically matched children of divorced heterosexual mothers. Evaluation instruments included the Draw-A-Person test, questions regarding sex-typed activities, and future plans. There were no significant differences for boys or girls in either group of families. It is concluded that difficulties experienced by children in lesbian mother households stem from reactions to divorce and not from the mother's lesbianism.

(6) Green, R., Mandel, J. B., Hotvedt, M. E., Gray, J., & Smith, L. (1986). Lesbian mothers and their children: A comparison with solo parent heterosexual mothers and their children. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 15, 167-184.

Assesses psychosexual and psychosocial development of 56 children living with lesbian mothers and 48 children of heterosexual mothers. Groups were matched on mothers' age, race, education and income and on number, age, sex of children, and time since separation from father. Data were collected via questionnaires, audiotaped interviews, and standardized tests. Results revealed no differences between the two groups of children in IQ, self-concept, or social adjustment. There was no evidence of conflict in gender identity in the children of lesbian mothers and no psychopathology related to the mother's sexual orientation. Daughters of lesbians preferred traditionally masculine job roles significantly more often than the daughters of heterosexual mothers and were less traditionally feminine in current dress and in activity preferences at school and at home, but these differences were not beyond the normal range. No difference was found for boys, with 95% of both groups choosing traditionally masculine jobs.

(7) Hotvedt, M. E., & Mandel, J. B. (1982). Children of lesbian mothers. In W. Paul, J.D. Weinrich, J. Gonsiorek, & M. Hotvedt (Eds.). Homosexuality, social psychological and biological issues (pp. 275-285). Beverly Hills, CA: Sage.

Reviews authors' study of 50 lesbian mothers and 20 heterosexual single mothers, with children ranging in age from 3 to 11 years. Questionnaires, tests, and in-depth interviews were conducted on the children. Using this comparative study format of lesbian and heterosexual single mothers' family units, the data do not support popularly held myths and family court assumptions that children of lesbian parents are prone to "... neglect, unpopularity, confused gender identity, or homosexuality" (p. 284). Stresses the need for divorce lawyers, judges, and child welfare providers to become familiar with the research and begin to change biased perceptions and myths. Presents the need for states to change laws making same sex orientation a felony. Makes no mention in either its literature review or authors' own study about the added complexities surrounding gay and lesbian minority families and the need for further research in this area.

(8) Huggins, S. L. (1989). A comparative study of self-esteem of adolescent children of divorced lesbian mothers and divorced heterosexual mothers. Journal of Homosexuality, 18 (1/2), 123-135.

Examines the psychological construct of self-esteem using a comparative survey design with adolescent children of divorced lesbian mothers and divorced heterosexual mothers. There were 18 children in both groups, also divided equally by sex; that is, nine in each subgroup. Children ranged in age from 12-19 years. The Coopersmith Self-Esteem Inventory (SEI) was used to measure self-esteem. Mothers and children were also interviewed in order to obtain additional data. The sample was White, and the study did not discuss issues related to cultural/ethnic minorities and other issues of diversity. There was no significant difference between SEI scores of adolescent children from divorced heterosexual versus divorced lesbian mothers. Findings are consistent with other studies across different variables, indicating that children of lesbian/gay parents are not at greater risk for problems with "... sexual identity confusion, inappropriate gender role behavior, psychopathology, or homosexual orientation in children" (p. 124). Stresses the need for further comparative research examining lesbian and heterosexual couples and single lesbian mothers with single heterosexual mothers.

(9) Miller, B. (1979). Gay fathers and their children. The Family Coordinator, 28, 544-552.

Presents data from a 3-year study on the quality and nature of the relationships of homosexual fathers with their children. In-depth interviews were conducted with a snowball sample of 40 gay fathers and 14 of their children. Uses a cross-national sample: Interviews were conducted in large and small cities in both Canada and the United States. Excluded from the study men who no longer saw their children. Fathers were aged from 24 to 64, and the children who were interviewed ranged from 14 to 33 years of age. Addresses the nature of the father-child relationship and the children's adjustment to their father's homosexuality. Four issues frequently raised in custody cases are discussed: do gay fathers have children to cover their homosexuality, do they molest their children, do their children turn out to be gay in disproportionate numbers, and does having a gay father expose a child to homophobic harassment. Concludes that concerns that gay fathers will have a negative impact on their children's development are unfounded.

[scripter]

Here's some more. You really have to be careful who you read. It does you no good to read sources pushing the homosexual agenda.

Homosexual Parenting: Is It Time For Change?
Where Children Have No Voice: The"Right" of Adoption by Homosexual Partners

Dangers of Same-Sex Couples Adopting Children (Part 1)
Dangers of Same-Sex Couples Adopting Children (Part 2)

Children and homosexual adoption
Homosexual adoption

[little jeremiah]

You said:

" Many Christians believe that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute."

There is a missing fact. IF Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, she gave up her sinful life to follow Jesus' instructions. Just as later on, one of Jesus' disciples (I'm not a scholar, others will know who) listed those* who will not enter the Kingdom of God, and said something like "many of you were these" but were no longer.

IOW, among Jesus' followers both ancient and modern, there are FORMER - got it? used to be, and are no longer - drug addicts, alcoholics, wife beaters, husband beaters, adulterers, prostitutes, thieves, and homosexuals.

What a person used to be is not important. It's what they are now that is important. God's mercy changes hearts and lives. Since there are many former homosexuals, their stories need to be heard.

*The list included idolators, prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, and more.

[Ernie.cal]

How do I define perversion?

Well, first, I don't use terms maliciously to libel entire groups of people that I don't even know.

Honorable, decent, and rational people make intelligent distinctions in life.

For example, we make distinctions in law, moral precepts, and consequences exacted for (1) murder, (2) manslaughter, and (3) killing in self-defense---even though all 3 involve taking human life.

We don't maliciously choose LOWEST-COMMON-DENOMINATOR terminology to characterize all 3 situations. As I stated in previous messages, persons who use language to incite fear, hatred, revulsion, and disgust should not pretend to be motivated by religious or other positive values nor should they claim to be just "presenting facts".

Perversion refers to degrading, depraved, immoral acts. Forcing sex upon children, for example, would be perversion. However, depicting ALL sexual activity between two consenting adults (and the entire category of humans that they represent--which involves millions of people) as "depraved" or "perverted" betokens a desire to demonize and de-humanize people so that (1) fear and loathing can commence and (2) punitive, discriminatory policies and behavior can be justified

[Ernie.cal]

What does "pushing the homosexual agenda" mean? Is there such a thing as "pushing the heterosexual agenda"? Or pushing the "I don't like anyone different from me" agenda?

[little jeremiah]

You are wrong. There actually is objective reality. Reality is not an optional kind of thing that can be accepted or rejected depending on mood, mindset, or sexual proclivities. Some things are true, some aren't. Some things exist, some are fantasy. Some things are wrong, some aren't. And some forms of sexual activity are perverted, and some aren't.

Just because a tiny group of people are attracted to same sex sodomy doesn't mean they get to change the meaning of the word "perverted".

Same sex sodomy (and even opposite sex sodomy) has been considered perverted since time immemorial. Why, you may ask?

Because it is.

[Ernie.cal]

There is a missing fact. IF Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, she gave up her sinful life to follow Jesus' instructions

You missed my point. BEFORE Mary "gave up her sinful life", Jesus sought to protect her from a hateful mob who who were convinced of their own superior morals and their superior and infallible understanding of God's will. Jesus did not stand there and seek to humiliate Mary nor characterize her in mean-spirited language. He did not tell Mary: "You are a depraved, perverted woman". Jesus did not ask the mob to be silent so that he could heard describing Mary in language used by many who have posted messages in this thread. As merely a brief representative sample: Message #......Language 15..........."threat to society, disgusting" 40..........."lust-driven perverted lifestyle" 93..........."mentally ill" 105.........."mental defect" 119.........."sick, deviant, sick perverts" 203.........."evil pedophiles" 283.........."revolting" 305.........."disordered" 331.........."warped and destructive" 350.........."aberrant, sickening, filthy, vile, putrid" But, oh no! --- There's no "hate" here...Just an exchange of "facts".

[Ernie.cal]

BTW, we've seen the other works of Charlotte Patterson on FR here and here - she's obviously pushing the homosexual agenda. And Perrin references Patterson's work. Scripter, in peer-reviewed scientific studies, simply asserting that someone is biased or inaccurate isn't sufficient. The way it works is this: If (for example) Patterson or Perrin write an article or book based upon data they obtained from some research project and another specialist in that field suspects that their conclusions are flawed---then, (a) qualified researchers may review the same data seen by the original authors to evaluate how the conclusions were reached. When applicable, the reviewers can specify what they think the original authors have missed OR perhaps they may present alternative interpretations of the same data in that study OR (b) qualified researchers can undertake a new study of their own on the same subject to discover whatever data is being sought -- and then write their own articles and books which are also subject to peer review. It is entirely possible that a study will reveal that factual data is not in dispute. Instead, how facts are put together to form reasonable conclusions is what causes disagreement. (Sort of like police arriving at a crime scene and interviewing 7 people---and discovering there are discrepancies among the 7 stories -- even though basic facts are not in dispute). In science, "Pushing an agenda" is not the only possible explanation for differences in interpretation of data. You make it sound like there is always ONE self-evident true conclusion and anyone who disagrees must be "pushing an agenda".

[DirtyHarryY2K]

#1 Psychology

#2 Journal of Homosexuality

#3 Journal of Homosexuality

#4 Developmental Psychology [Compares a group of 15 White lesbian couples] Not your typical cross section of homosexual subjects including but not limited to "NAMBLA MEMBERS" OR "S&M gays of America" OR "DYKES ON BIKES" is it?!?

#5 Psychiatry and the Law "Both are and can be flawed" #6 A comparison with solo parent heterosexual mothers and their children. (IRRELEVENT) NOT IN THE BEST INTREST OF THE CHILD.

I am sorry Ernie, Adoption of children by homosexuals cannot be considered in the best interest of the child.

NO child should be deprived of their natural basic right to have BOTH a Father AND a Mother for the sake of two selfish perverts that place their sexual preference over the needs of the child.

Main Entry: [2]per·vert
Pronunciation: 'p&r-"v&rt
Function: noun
Date: circa 1661
: one that has been perverted; specifically : one given to some form of sexual perversion

Main Entry: [1]per·vert
Pronunciation: p&r-'v&rt
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French pervertir, from Latin pervertere to overturn, corrupt, pervert, from per- thoroughly + vertere to turn —more at PER-, WORTH
Date: 14th century
1 a : to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or morally right : CORRUPT
b : to cause to turn aside or away from what is generally done or accepted : MISDIRECT
2 a : to divert to a wrong end or purpose : MISUSE
b : to twist the meaning or sense of : MISINTERPRET synonym see DEBASE
- per·vert·er noun
© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy

[ItsOurTimeNow]

Correctamundo, lj. Once one is washed clean by the healing power of Christ, all past sins are forgiven. The mission of the new Christian from that point is to live their lives as close to Godly holiness as possible. In Christ, one is given the ability to reject sin. A "true" conversion is shown in the 180* turn of the heart - away from the sinful life, and towards holiness.

It was Paul, in his 1st letter to the church at Corinth:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." ~1 Cor 6v9-11 (NIV)

Virtually all other translations say the same thing.

And before the Sodomite Apologists start whining about specific translations - The word "homosexual", translated from New Testament greek is 'arsenokoite' - literally translated as "one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite".

[bvw]

There are some -- actually a large number -- of air molecules in whose individual thermal energy is under 200 degrees centigrade. Therefore we should allow landlords to set their rental heating systems at minus 200 degrees centigrade.

[scripter]

I don't use terms maliciously to libel entire groups of people that I don't even know.

You are being inconsident as you contradicted yourself in this post. You don't use the term perversion to libel entire groups of people, and then you say "Forcing sex upon children, for example, would be perversion". Is that an entire group or just some?

Apparently you're of the opinion that consenting adults can never engage in perversion - you're tossing the dictionary definition of perversion, tossing the definition used for thousands of years and making up your own definition.

Using your definition of perversion, consenting adult brothers can engage in sex but it's not perversion. The same would be true for father/daughter, mother/son, sister/sister, any sex between grand parents and grand children, etc - any two, three, four (any number of consenting adults) of the same family, as long as they're consenting adults.

Most folks don't twist words and change their meaning to defend behavior commonly referred to as perversion.

Apparently you've never read what former homosexuals have to say on the matter.

[scripter]

What does "pushing the homosexual agenda" mean?

It means many things. One of which is changing and twisting the definition of words. Another is being very selective in what information one considers authoritative and unbiased. And another is to ignore all the facts - to toss the bigger picture. To ignore what former homosexuals have to say.