Poll: Over 50% of Germans equate IDF with Nazi army

Jerusalem Post ^ | Dec. 7, 2004 | Etgar Lefkowits

[OESY]

I must confess that in my cursory review of this thread I may have missed the anti-Semitic remarks to which you refer. They should also be vigorously condemned. Indeed, I too am interested in what you found to be "hateful."

[Smile-n-Win]

How convenient, as you say, to keep projecting even the CAPACITY for human evil away -- over there, those other people; not me, not us.

No one on this thread has suggested that Americans or Israelis are somehow "automatically good," without a capacity to do evil. The reason we are not concerned about Americans or Israelis doing evil is that, although they do have the capacity, they choose not to exercise it.

American culture is a culture of self-reliance, freedom, and justice. It teaches that individuals have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is not the kind of culture that encourages you to do evil; it is the kind of culture that encourages you to do good. A similar argument applies to Israel.

Hitler could come to power (and the Communist party could almost come to power) in 1932-3 because of the culture of dependence and envy that dominated Germany at that time. And, as this article, and a long series of other ones over the last couple of years have shown, German culture hasn't changed all that much since the 1930s.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Don't even try with me; I know what has happened in Palestine.

Like the eternally patient Arabs, I also understand that it is just temporary.

[Tuco Ramirez]

I have coins from Palestine from 1942; I can't find any coins from pseudo-Israel until 1948.

Don't worry, God has ways of working these things out. Within a century, it will be Palestine again, and yes, the Palestinians can wait that long.

[Alouette]

I know what has happened in Palestine.

You and the rest of your Atzlan compadres.

[Tuco Ramirez]

As long as the Palestinians know what they are and what they're fighting for, your explanation is academic.

[Cinnamon Girl]

Wasn't there a poster called "Tuco-bad" or something like that who got banned a while back?

[Alouette]

I can't find any coins from pseudo-Israel until 1948.

Ancient Jewish coins

Within a century, it will be Palestine again

Just like California will be Mexico again?

[dennisw]

F off Azteca.

[Alouette]

Looks like nuestro amigo has gone South.

[Cinnamon Girl]

Is that Shuafat, Alouette?

[rightwingcrazy]

your explanation is academic

Then so must be your original comment about "deeper roots".

As long as the Palestinians know what they are

Not Jews?

and what they're fighting for.

No Jews?

[Alouette]

Is that Shuafat, Alouette?

Umm El Fahm.

[Radix]

"They are held responsible for sins of past generations -- a type of collective and racial guilt that no other group would be held to...

Tell that to race whores such as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and a lot of others.

I lived in a small village in Germany for a few years some time ago. Most of my neighbors were decent, and they treated me and my family quite well.

Still, from my perspective, the German people are by and large in denial concerning many of the events of WW2 including but not limited to the Holocaust.

You can suggest else is the case, but I saw enough to convince me that most Germans do not acknowledge the sins of a mere half century before (I left Germany in 1980.)

Slavery was ended by the West, and in the USA more than 100 years ago. I have never knowingly met a slave owner. I have met many former Nazis. There was little remorse ever displayed before me concerning atrocities committed and supported by their countrymen.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"German culture hasn't changed all that much since the 1930s."

Germany has virtually never had the opportunity to become a stable nation-state. The modern post-'48 state is, however, a notable exception. This is not me; but an historical reality.

Hitler could come to power, and the Communists could almost come to power (I'm thinking rather of 1919) because of a variety of virtually non-repeatable historical circumstances.

WW I, for example -- despite conventional wisdom, was NOT unilaterally Germany's fault; and for Pres. Wilson to turn his back on his famed 14 points for self-determination, and allow the Versailles Treaty to be accepted in the form it was -- in exchange for votes for his beloved League of Nations -- which Lodge in the Senate refused to ratify -- was a travesty of justice. This fact was not lost on most people of the time, including not only the US Senate, but the German people as well.

The 1919 Communist revolutions in Germany were all too successful, flamed somewhat by hunger and despair -- but FUELED by outside agitators. The Soviet Union was convinced that the next bulwark of Communism would be Germany, and backed up those instincts with resouces. Why did Britain maintain a post-hostilities blockade barring food to Germany, after the armistice was declared? And HOW many German citizens starved because of that? Why did the Allies demand that ALL of Germany's nobility vacate -- leaving a political vacuum -- while maintaining a nobility in their own country? Including, e.g., the Wittelsbachs in Bavaria -- opening the way for the Communists revolt that had to be reversed by the FreiCorps, some of which later joined the SA, others of which joined the Nazi opposition? If NOT for the FreiCorps, Germany likely would have followed Lenin's prediction . . . which certainly would not have been good for the West.

Hitler's party was "elected" to positions in government -- but Hitler was NOT elected as a dictator. He was appointed Chancellor, and then forcibly assumed the reigns of absolute power. Some were suspicious of Hitler and the Nazis, rightly so, and counseled against a pro-Nazi vote. Archbishop Faulheber of Munich comes to mind, and Bavaria did NOT vote in the Nazis. But even the citizens who elected Nazi party members to the government, did NOT know about any plan for totalitarian dictatorship, much less of any "final solution." That is not what they voted for. They certainly did not vote for war. They did not want war. [see: the Social History of the Third Reich. I can get you the author and publisher if you wish.]

So in what way is this Germany of today like that of the 30's? Frankly, I do not see a lot of similarities. Germany has acknowledged its present borders. Schroeder's government is not what I would want, but I seriously doubt Schroeder and Fischer will be assuming dictatorial powers anytime soon. There is "Angst" in Germany about the economy; but no one is blaming it on "the Jews" -- rather poor economic conditions are being blamed on sclerotic work rules and high taxes. Even the SPD has to try to reform the system, to avoid choking off all growth.

The culture of Berlin of the 30s in the caberets was rather decadent. However, the culture of New York and Paris in the 30s were probably decadent, too. And many in the German "provinces" have decried Berlin's social scene . . . There is no doubt decadence in Berlin today -- however, it is certainly of the type celebrated by today's liberal world opinion . . . AS was that of the 30s, BTW . . .

This is 2004, WW II is over, Hitler is dead. Any resemblance to the '30s is superficial. IMO, of course. ;)

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Slavery was ended by the West, and in the USA more than 100 years ago. I have never knowingly met a slave owner. I have met many former Nazis. There was little remorse ever displayed before me concerning atrocities committed and supported by their countrymen."

Hmmm . . . a lot of ground to cover here.

One of the reasons that slavery was ended by the West, is that the German immigrants to America were appalled by it, and put their blood behind that conviction. Germantown, PA was a site of early abolitionist resistance. The German immigrants in Missouri are THE reason that Missouri did not go as a slave state. Of the 7 regiments from Cincinnati in the Civil War on the side of the North, 3 were German-speaking, with German-speaking officers. Etc. Or as they would say in German, u.s.w. (and so on). The German sentiment for human rights and fair play were well expressed in this country.

In Europe, German states led the way in the freedom of the serfs. Prussia was the first to offer a social security system. Now, Bismark has his faults; I won't justify all his policies . . . But there has indeed been a human rights record that was admirable and imitated in the rest of Europe.

Your personal experience in Germany cannot be denied, as it was your experience. My 5 years in Germany also have to be counted as valid, and I never heard a word in favor of Hitler or Nazis or anti-Semitism. I was in German homes, I never saw Nazi memorabilia. I worked with dozens of German citizens, native and naturalized. Including Turkish Gast-arbeitern. I never heard a word uttered in favor of Nazism. I went to churches. I visited schools. I visited towns from Hamburg to Garmish-Partenkirchen. From Koeln to Nuermberg. I experienced only friendly, loving people, -- which surprised me, to tell the truth! I did not expect the fun-loving, out-going expressions that I actually experienced.

In fact, the only negative experience I ever had, was years later when I took my daughter over to see the Christmas Markts, which I had experienced during my tour there. Being a kid, she threw up at an Autobahn rest stop. We were embarrassed, of course. The Pflegerin brought me a bucket to clean it up! This stuck in my mind, because it was so much in contrast to the treatment I had otherwise experienced from Germans . . .

[Radix]

My overall disposition towards Germans is not a negative one. I lived there and worked in complete harmony for years. 

When the American television mini-series "the Holocaust" was broadcast on German TV, I was quite surprised at the reactions and sentiments of many of my friends and neighbors. Before, I had not been aware that generally speaking, Germans seemed to resent the implications that the television series had suggested concerning certain facts of WW2.

As to the abolitionist movement in America, it was indeed quite complex. The Quakers largely of Germanic heritage were certainly instrumental in effecting the end of slavery in this country.

Coincidently, I grew up in an area of Boston quite near the ward (or precinct) known as Readville. In a way I have taken my FR name Radix as a derivative of that area. I sometimes tell people that I am from a place known as Radville.

(Please pardon the graffiti on this picture which I took  this past summer at the former location of Camp Meigs in Readville.)

 

 

http://www.blackcamisards.com/artgallery/bv102.html

http://www.nps.gov/boaf/54th.htm

 

[AMDG&BVMH]

"The Quakers largely of Germanic heritage were certainly instrumental in effecting the end of slavery in this country."

and not only the Quakers . . .

BTW thank you, and yours, for your service to our country . . .

I was actually astounded while in Germany of the hospitality and friendliness of the "average" German citizen. I had expected the stereotypical harsh militaristic German. Imagine my surprise! In this country, the stranger would not experience the welcome that he would in the German town -- in my experience. What we need in this troubled world is more Gemütlichkeit, and less rancour.

Frohe Weihnachten -- if there ever was a Christmas, and there WAS -- the best place to experience it -- outside Bethlehem -- has to be in Germany.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Radix "

and not only that . . . but salted Radi with beer is quite a treat . . .

I am sure I have been to Ft. Meigs at one time or another . .

[HenryLeeII]

I have coins from Palestine from 1942; I can't find any coins from pseudo-Israel until 1948.

No, Tuco-bad, what you have are coins from the French protectorate known as 'Palestine;' I have postage stamps from the same. But, the indisputable historical fact remains that there has never been a sovereign country called Palestine. Up until the mid-1960s the term 'Palestinian' referred to the Jews living in and around Jerusalem; not until the Egyptian terrorist Arafat corrupted the word as a front for his genocidal terrorist campaign against the state of Israel did it refer to Arabs.