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To: AMDG&BVMH
How convenient, as you say, to keep projecting even the CAPACITY for human evil away -- over there, those other people; not me, not us.

No one on this thread has suggested that Americans or Israelis are somehow "automatically good," without a capacity to do evil. The reason we are not concerned about Americans or Israelis doing evil is that, although they do have the capacity, they choose not to exercise it.

American culture is a culture of self-reliance, freedom, and justice. It teaches that individuals have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is not the kind of culture that encourages you to do evil; it is the kind of culture that encourages you to do good. A similar argument applies to Israel.

Hitler could come to power (and the Communist party could almost come to power) in 1932-3 because of the culture of dependence and envy that dominated Germany at that time. And, as this article, and a long series of other ones over the last couple of years have shown, German culture hasn't changed all that much since the 1930s.

282 posted on 12/08/2004 1:04:12 PM PST by Smile-n-Win (The U.S.A. is here to stay--better move out of our way!)
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To: Smile-n-Win

"German culture hasn't changed all that much since the 1930s."

Germany has virtually never had the opportunity to become a stable nation-state. The modern post-'48 state is, however, a notable exception. This is not me; but an historical reality.

Hitler could come to power, and the Communists could almost come to power (I'm thinking rather of 1919) because of a variety of virtually non-repeatable historical circumstances.

WW I, for example -- despite conventional wisdom, was NOT unilaterally Germany's fault; and for Pres. Wilson to turn his back on his famed 14 points for self-determination, and allow the Versailles Treaty to be accepted in the form it was -- in exchange for votes for his beloved League of Nations -- which Lodge in the Senate refused to ratify -- was a travesty of justice. This fact was not lost on most people of the time, including not only the US Senate, but the German people as well.

The 1919 Communist revolutions in Germany were all too successful, flamed somewhat by hunger and despair -- but FUELED by outside agitators. The Soviet Union was convinced that the next bulwark of Communism would be Germany, and backed up those instincts with resouces. Why did Britain maintain a post-hostilities blockade barring food to Germany, after the armistice was declared? And HOW many German citizens starved because of that? Why did the Allies demand that ALL of Germany's nobility vacate -- leaving a political vacuum -- while maintaining a nobility in their own country? Including, e.g., the Wittelsbachs in Bavaria -- opening the way for the Communists revolt that had to be reversed by the FreiCorps, some of which later joined the SA, others of which joined the Nazi opposition? If NOT for the FreiCorps, Germany likely would have followed Lenin's prediction . . . which certainly would not have been good for the West.

Hitler's party was "elected" to positions in government -- but Hitler was NOT elected as a dictator. He was appointed Chancellor, and then forcibly assumed the reigns of absolute power. Some were suspicious of Hitler and the Nazis, rightly so, and counseled against a pro-Nazi vote. Archbishop Faulheber of Munich comes to mind, and Bavaria did NOT vote in the Nazis. But even the citizens who elected Nazi party members to the government, did NOT know about any plan for totalitarian dictatorship, much less of any "final solution." That is not what they voted for. They certainly did not vote for war. They did not want war. [see: the Social History of the Third Reich. I can get you the author and publisher if you wish.]

So in what way is this Germany of today like that of the 30's? Frankly, I do not see a lot of similarities. Germany has acknowledged its present borders. Schroeder's government is not what I would want, but I seriously doubt Schroeder and Fischer will be assuming dictatorial powers anytime soon. There is "Angst" in Germany about the economy; but no one is blaming it on "the Jews" -- rather poor economic conditions are being blamed on sclerotic work rules and high taxes. Even the SPD has to try to reform the system, to avoid choking off all growth.

The culture of Berlin of the 30s in the caberets was rather decadent. However, the culture of New York and Paris in the 30s were probably decadent, too. And many in the German "provinces" have decried Berlin's social scene . . . There is no doubt decadence in Berlin today -- however, it is certainly of the type celebrated by today's liberal world opinion . . . AS was that of the 30s, BTW . . .

This is 2004, WW II is over, Hitler is dead. Any resemblance to the '30s is superficial. IMO, of course. ;)


295 posted on 12/08/2004 3:55:42 PM PST by AMDG&BVMH
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