Here is a Palestinian village smack in the middle of Israel. See how miserable and poverty-stricken these Palestinians live. Why, their satellite dishes only receive 99 channels!
Oh and, no Jews are allowed to live there. So much for "apartheid."
Posted on 12/07/2004 2:14:35 PM PST by Alouette
Six decades after the mass extermination of six million Jews in the Holocaust by Nazi Germany, more than 50 percent of Germans believe that Israel's present-day treatment of the Palestinians is similar to what the Nazis did to the Jews during World War II, a German survey released this weekend shows.
51 percent of respondents said that there is not much of a difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today and what the Nazis did to the Jews during the Holocaust, compared to 49% who disagreed with such a comparison, according to the poll carried out by Germany's University of Bielefeld.
The survey also found that 68 percent of Germans believe that Israel is waging a "war of extermination" against the Palestinians, while some 32% disagreed with such a statement.
In a first reaction, the chairman of Yad Vashem's directorate Avner Shalev said Tuesday that the poll's results, which he termed "very worrisome," were indicative of a long-suppressed felling of anti-Semitism among the mainstream "so-called liberals" population which now, under the coating of anti-Israeli criticism, are becoming legitimate again. He added that the poll's results, which he said any objective person would repudiate, are also the result of the release of pent-up feelings of guilt built up from the Holocaust.
"The energies which bring about such answers come to protect feelings of guilt," Shalev said. 62 percent of respondents in the poll said that they were sick of "all this harping" of German crimes against Jews, while 68% said that they found it "annoying" that Germans today are still held to blame for Nazi crimes against Jews.
The survey, which aimed to determine what is "the cut off point" between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism, finds that while "classical" anti-Semitism in Germany is on the wane, secondary anti-Semitism, often couched in anti-Israel views are on the rise, especially among the Left.
The German researchers who conducted the polls conceded that the results showing a majority of Germans equating Israel's Policy with Nazi Atrocities "may be worrying," but concurred with Yad Vashem's Shalev that the media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinians conflict has made such analogies part of the public discourse.
"When you see an image in the newspaper, in a caricature, which is repeated day in and day out that Sharon is equal to Hitler than the image catches in your head because maybe you do not like Jews so much or maybe you hate Jews, and than this works out excellent," Shalev said, stressing that education of the young generation was the key to stemming such a tide.
In the survey, 82 percent of the respondents polled said that they are angered by the way Israel is treating the Palestinians, while 45 percent of those polled said that considering Israel's policies it was "no surprise" that people were against them.
The telephone poll of 3000 "non-migrant" respondents, which was taken in May and June, did not come with a margin of error.
"This is a very sad commentary about what is happening in Europe today which needs to send a very strong warning signal about how much work needed to be done to deal with these attitudes," said, Dr. Ephraim Zuroff, the Israel director of the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center.
Due in part to its blighted history, Germany is generally considered to be one of the more supportive countries of Israel in Europe.
David fought the Philistines(the root of "Palestine")One only believes *that* if one believes in the Bible. And if you believe in *that*, then you accept its word that the land was divinely and irrevocably assigned to the descendents of Israel (aka Jacob).
At any rate, the Philistines appear to have come from islands around Greece and settled in Canaan about 2-3 centuries after Jacob dwelled there and was given that covenant. Furthermore, the current definition of "Palestinian" seems to be "Arabic speaking non-Jew claiming residency rights west of the Jordan river". Any connection to the ancient Philistines would seem to be rather forced.
If, today, Israel started treating the Palestinians in a similar way to how the Nazis treated the Jews during World War II, the "final solution" to the Palestinian troubles would be completed by next Tuesday.
In any war, there will be unfortunate incidents. Civilians will be caught in crossfires, shot by mistake or sometimes shot deliberately and without justification by a lone soldier.
It is very easy to criticize nations at war if you have grown up for three generations without ever having to actually go to war to defend either yourself or your Allies.
There are other ways to kill civilians and that is to let your society become so militarily impotent that you cannot even prevent the slaughter of thousands of men women and children under your military protection.
Such was the case with Western Europe during the Srebrenica slaughter.
Yes, you are right: Repeating The Lie frequently will not make it so.
What are you babbling about? Are you claiming that the pseudo-Palestinians have the keys to peoples' homes in Israel? You should quit believing everything Arafat the Egyptian told you, and check out history:
"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem."
–Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph, Sept. 6, 1948."Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."
–The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951."The proof of the pudding is that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland. Why?
"In 1967, during the Six-Day War, the Israelis captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. Why did the so-called Palestinians suddenly discover their national identity after Israel won the war. Why wasn't there a demand for a Palestinian homeland before?
"The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived, we think, from the Philistines, a people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier.
"Contrary to what Yasser Arafat will tell you, the Philistines were extinct by that time. Arafat likes to pretend his people are the descendants of the Philistines. Actually, the name was simply a way for the Romans to add insult to injury to the Jews – not only were they annihilated, but their land was renamed after people they had conquered.
"Arafat himself was born in Egypt. He later moved to Jerusalem. Indeed, most of the Arabs living within the borders of Israel today have come from some other Arab country at some time in their life.
"Arabs continue to flock into Israel today. They continue to move into the Palestinian Authority. They immigrated there even before it left Israeli control.
"The Arabs have built 261 settlements in the West Bank since 1967. We don't hear much about those settlements. We hear instead about the number of Jewish settlements that have been created. We hear how destabilizing they are – how provocative they are. Yet, by comparison, only 144 Jewish settlements have been built since 1967 – including those surrounding Jerusalem, in the West Bank and in Gaza."
-"An Unconventional Arab Viewpoint," by Joseph Farah; World Net Daily, February 24, 2003."In fact, right up until 1947 when Israel was re-created as a Jewish state by a vote of the United Nations, the term "Palestinians" was synonymous with "Jews." Today the term has been co-opted by Yasser Arafat's terrorists and propagandists who suggest Palestine was an Arab country.
"There has never been an Arab country known as Palestine in the history of the world.
"The overwhelming number of Arabs in this territory today have come from other Arab countries for very good and understandable reasons – jobs, economic opportunity, freedom that they have never known in their homelands.
"The British did not throw any Arabs out of their homes. The U.N. did not throw any Arabs out of their homes. The Israelis did not throw any Arabs out of their homes. Some left the region in 1948 at the urging of Arab leaders who declared a war on Israel the day it was reborn.
"Why did they declare war? Because they didn't want any Jewish state in the region. The U.N. had voted to create two nations – one Arab and one Jewish in the region of Palestine, but that was not acceptable to the Arabs."
-"Tony Campolo: Misinformed, Bad Theology;" World Net Daily, February 12, 2003.
Now show me something to prove you little contention that Israel kicked people out of their homes. Some Arabs living in Israel left in 1948 at the urging of Arabic leaders, then when the wars failed to destroy Israel these same Arab leaders who encouraged them to leave wouldn't allow them to settle in their countries. Others have come from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc. to settle in Israel or the PA territories. But for those who voluntarily left their homes in Israel so that Arabic armies could march in and destroy that country, too bad. Why should they and their descendants get that property back; they abandoned it voluntarily and now other Israelis, both Jew and Arab, have settled there in a productive and peaceful (on their part) manner.
Here is a Palestinian village smack in the middle of Israel. See how miserable and poverty-stricken these Palestinians live. Why, their satellite dishes only receive 99 channels!
Oh and, no Jews are allowed to live there. So much for "apartheid."
"Good intentions? Well, I guess it all turns out for the best when one has good intentions."
No, that's not true; George Bush also had good intentions when he went to the UN and tried to get those bozos to join us but they refused, so sometimes good intentions don't work and other times they do.
Amen and right on!
Well, you simply misread the poll. 51% of the Germans say that it´s "similar", not equal.
I ignored nothing. I didn´t mention Hatuel, and the victims of Palestinian suicide terrorists. I say that those reports about the things the IDF do is not increasing their reputation. And you should keep that in mind when talking about the European view on Israel (note: Israel, not the Jewish religion).
"If anything is like Nazi Germany it is modern day Germany, a most cowardly and anti-Semitic nation."
1. Anti-Semitism is not Germany's national policy, as it was under totalitarian Nazism. So it is not an "anti-Semitic nation."
2. Believe it or not, Germany HAS done a great deal over the past 60 years, in compensation for the evils other German people committed 60 years ago under the Nazi banner. Millions/billions. It goes without saying that no amount of money can truly compensate for loss of human life -- but what else do you want them to do? Speaking realistically here. For how many more decades do you want the present and future German citizens to pay for the Nazi past? It is not "their" Nazi past, after all. They had nothing to do with it.
3. One of the things Germany is doing right now is reestablishing some of the traditional Jewish communities with Jewish immigrants. They are not trying to drive Jews out of Germany, they are actively bringing them in. That does not sound like an anti-Semitic policy. There is also the new Jewish Museum in Berlin, to name one of the Holocaust memorials.
4. Nazism was a syncretic cult combining some ancient pagan Nordic notions, with some Eastern beliefs (such as the Swastika and the notion of eternal recurrence), blended in with some occult practices, and with some eugenic beliefs thought to be "progressive" at that time, and which were not unique to Nazis. Read Margaret Sanger some time. IOW, it was NOT an organic cultural development of Germany; it was a made-up "religion" installed on the country by force. Since that "religion" is no longer influential in Germany, how do you conclude modern Germany is "like" Nazi Germany?
5. The modern German Constitution was developed under the tutelage of the Western Allies, with provisions to limit the likelihood that anything like the Hitler era could come to pass again. It is not the same Constitution of the Nazi era. It is a totally different government and type of government. The borders of the country are not the same as the Nazi era, so it is a different group of people than lived under Nazi Germany. So how is modern Germany a recurrence of Nazi Germany?
The vitriol against modern German citizens that these threads tend to generate because of the Nazi past, frankly astounds me. They are all lumped together stereotypically -- which would not be done for other groups. They are held responsible for sins of past generations -- a type of collective and racial guilt that no other group would be held to. The people of Russia are not held responsible for the war crimes and crimes against humanity of Stalin. Modern Japanese citizens are not held responsible for the many war crimes committed under their prior government. The world is anxious to trade with Communist China, which is not asked to first repent for the excesses of Mao, of Tienneman Square, and human rights violations of today.
I think it is due, in no small part, to the fact that Germany HAS acknowledged crimes carried out under a former German nation, and tried to compensate for the evil caused by that Nazi regime. You can't get guilt and recompense from someone who has no conscience about the past. It is a matter of honor, not personal guilt; their desire to make things right. It is now the fact that some of them are getting rather tired of bearing that collective guilt.
Saying something that could be interpreted at all contrary to the policies of the State of Israel is taken as being anti-Semitic to the core, with the Nazi past as proof. That is an astounding jump of logic.
To even the extent you can draw conclusions from this survey: Criticizing the foreign policy of Israel, or the tactics of the IDF, is certainly NOTHING like the Nazi policies against Jewish people.
You want Germans to lie in dust, I tell you: forget it. I have no responsibility regarding WW2 and I only accept the responsibility every human has: to prevent crimes whereever they occur. Germany must contribute to peace - at least in Europe, but the better in the world. Therefore it has never been a doubt that Germany backs the right of existance for a jewish Israel. I take every right to judge about other countries policies, just like you do. And now I advise you to go on playing with yourself.
This is an excellent post!! I agree with every word in it. BUMP!
OK, there was a minor technical mistake in my question. Still--
"51 percent of respondents said that there is not much of a difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today and what the Nazis did to the Jews during the Holocaust"
--the question stands: If there is NO German older than 16 who doesn't know what the Nazis did to the Jews, how come 51% of them think there is not much of a difference between the Nazis' and the IDF's actions?
"This is an excellent post"
Thanks; tho I am not sure it will make any difference to people who have their minds made up already.
It is still very easy for just about anyone to say nasty things about "THE Germans" . . .
Stop supporting the "Palestinian" terrorists, for a start. Is that too much to ask for?
"Stop supporting the "Palestinian" terrorists, for a start. Is that too much to ask for?"
implying that Germany gives more support to terrorists than to the State of Israel itself?
But at least you are getting to a relevant point: Middle East policy, and a way to bring peace between the State of Israel and the Palestinians, is a concern of the world. Using it to rehash German guilt for for the crimes of the Nazi era is not relevant, nor helpful.
"Criticizing" the "foreign" policy of Israel?? 51% of Germans accuse Israel of being Nazis, and you brush it off as a form of "criticism" ?? Surely, when Hitler made his speeches about Jews, he was just "criticizing" them, right?
What do you mean by the State of Israel giving support to terrorists? Granted, Israel has been pursuing the terrorists far less aggressively than it should have, but that hardly qualifies as "support," and it has largely been due to U.S. pressure.
No, I meant that Germany has given a lot of support to the State of Israel.
51% probably compare the refugee camps to KZ, the killing of Palestinian civilians with Jewish victims of mass executions, and the attitude towards Palestinians like the mood in Germany in the 30´s. I can´t tell, because I haven´t made this poll, nor am I belong to the 51%.
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