Romany Gypsies Came Out Of India

A Romany woman dances in downtown Prague during the third annual Khamoro Festival of Roma music and culture (Image: Reuters/Petr Josek)

Legend has it that European Gypsies came from Egypt but a new genetic study has shown they came from a small population that emerged from ancestors in India around 1000 years ago.

The research, by Professor Luba Kalaydjieva of the University of Western Australia and team, looked at the origins of eight to 10 million people in Europe commonly known as Gypsies.

Roma, Romani or Romany are other names for this community, which has featured in movies such as Latcho Drom.

"[The research] is the best evidence yet of the Indian origins of the Gypsies," the researchers write in an article published online ahead of print in the American Journal of Human Genetics.

The researchers were first alerted to the idea that the Romany may be descended from a small founder population when they discovered that certain genetic mutations in the population were shared in people who were not directly related.

This occurs in other groups that have developed from small founder populations such as the Finns, Ashkenazi Jews, the population of Quebec in Canada and possibly the Australian island state of Tasmania, Kalaydjieva, told ABC Science Online.

Kalaydjieva and team have been studying the genetics of Romany people for over 10 years.

In this recent study, which will be published in the October issue of the journal, the researchers analysed five genetic mutations linked to certain diseases, such as the neuromuscular disorder myasthenia.

The aim was to try and estimate when the original founder population arose and when it split off into different groups of Romany.

The researchers studied the diversity of the chromosomes that carry the genetic markers. Over successive generations, the region around the genetic markers become more and more diverse.

By applying a known rate of genetic change in DNA, the researchers worked out the founder population emerged from the ancestral population 32 to 40 generations ago, or 800 to 1000 years ago.

As well as looking at over 1100 samples of Romany from Europe, they studied six samples from India and found that the similarity in genetic markers supported the theory that the founder group, of perhaps under 1000 people, came from India.

The idea that Romany people came from India was first proposed 200 years ago based on similarities between their language and the Indian language Sanskrit, said Kalaydjieva. But such studies were inconclusive.

"There are quite a few examples where a population adopts a language but this does not necessarily mean its biological roots belong to the same place as the larger population that speaks this language," she said.

"So from the biological point of view we have provided we have provided the best evidence so far that this is indeed a population that derives from the Indian subcontinent."

Kalaydjieva and team's analysis of disease genetic markers supported the scientists' previous research on male and female genetic markers.

Kalaydjieva said scientists commonly used the term "Gypsy" but this was politically and historically loaded.

"Initially Gypsies were called Gypsies because Europeans believed, and this was a legend that the Gypsies maintained themselves, that they came from Egypt," she said.

But she said Gypsies had been persecuted due to superstition, racism and prejudice. The term Gypsy had become increasingly given a pejorative meaning, being used to describe a social category with a wandering nomadic way of life, rather than a biological population. Many people from that group now preferred to be called Roma, Romani or Romany.

She said the term Romani or Romany, strictly speaking linguistically and historically, described Balkan Gypsies. These people were a sub-group of European Gypsies and the scientific term Gypsy was a more generic term to cover the biological population.

Today people descended from European Gypsies live all over the world, even Australia. In Bulgaria alone there are at least 50 groups with different traditions, cultures, dialects and adopted religions.

Most people associate a Hungarian-type pastiche with Gypsy music. You draw a fine and possibly uninteresting distinction. What people think is Spanish Gypsy music is Andalusian-Moorish. As for Russian "Gypsy" music, most would be hard-pressed to tell it from Hungarian.

The more interesting possibility is that this group can't create much of anything that can be remembered. Not music, not art, not food, no stories, no poetry...can you think of any other ethnic group in the US that can say so little for itself in cultural contribution?

I listened to some visiting musicians at a university, who claimed to be Rom with "authentic" music (which I suspected was yet another con)--mostly percussion and well-nigh unlistenable. If it truly was authentic, which I doubt, I can see why it was lost.

I heard of one con that really crossed my eyes--it involved a band of Gypsies that offered to paint someone's garage. The owner supplied the paint, and the gypsies did the work and were paid. But later, the paint faded away in days. It turned out that the gypsies had watered down the paint--probably to steal one or two gallons.

Imagine, working so hard, taking so much trouble, to steal about thirty bucks of paint?

Addresses the point that stealing is more than the merchandise--it's a kind of hunt, a point of pride in putting one over on the "gaijos".

The trouble with any attempt at scholarship or writing about the Rom--and many have attempted it--is that the Gypsies themselves refuse to be studied and will lie blandly and constantly. A linguistics professor I attended was convinced he had unlocked secrets--but all he had managed was to learn some of the language. You speak a language, and can't hide it.

Social workers have attempted to "cash in" on Gypsy culture, thinking that they've found a new grievance group with which to demand government attn and launch themselves as the Great White Father of the Rom on Network Television and the Academic Circuit. But these social workers themselves get conned, over and over.

A delightful thing, that.

I passed by this post initially, had to come back to address it.

Someone posted that the gypsies had managed to maintain their criminal reputation without violence.

Wrong. They are just about the lowest form of life with access to 'human' anywhere in their scientific name.

Less than two years ago my 85 year old mother was kidnapped by gypsies. First described as hispanic I am certain that they were the Indian and not Irish or other troops. She was picked up (a) in a stolen car, (b)after a phony 'restore your car' scam and (c) between care givers (early Alzheimers)then (d) found wandering in a used car lot after a failed attempt at conning her and general motors out of a new pick up truck.

When the police determined that gypsies were involved they simply dropped the case as impossible to prosecute. We made links to another scam she'd been hit by, bogus charities run out of one of those nondesctipt rent-a-shop clusters, that also turned out to be gypsies. Same thing, nothing from the police, one local news paper ran a mild sounding story. By habit, there was a name change, new pamphlets with the same hype and the whole story went along as before.
Interestingly, MY letters and demands were followed up by written responses blaming other people and including lurid details of drugs and other misdeeds. Again, these creeps were described as either hispanic or black when I canvassed the area. I doubt they were either but believe that it does provide a nice cover for dark skinned indo-europeans.

I believe today's gypsies pushed her death forward by months or years and PC be damned, they are not worth the air they breathe.

Thanks for the information. I will store it for future reference.

I don't remember much about this one's pickup except I noticed it was a very high dollar, late model 4wd. About what you would expect a contractor to be driving.

I did notice a few days later in the paper that a gang had been caught near here, pulling the same scam. I think they are going to be prosecuted.

I know a lady who is from South Carolina and lived near their home area. She said it is full of mansions. Seems She said it is not far from Augusta, Georgia.

She also agreed with me that they tend to be well groomed and handsome-pretty.

No, these guys really are of Irish and Scottish origin. Very few Roma ever got to Ireland or Scotland.

The trick to it is the few who did arrived at the same time the Brits were imposing strict enclosure and rent laws.

Consequently, as native folk were being driven out of their homes to live on the roads the Roma were there to teach them how to do it.

Look, in the United States the Gypsy culture has been integrated. There have been African-American Gypsies ever since slave days, and although they don't regularly "steal" infants, more than one unwanted baby has been passed on to them. Sometimes they pass them back!

There are also varying degrees of sophistication among the families. Some of them constitute a "lawyer caste", for example. At least one became an elected judge in Marion County, Indiana many years ago. I learned how to split dollar bills from his grandchildren.

Then there's the Waltons ~ not that they're Gypsies, but then neither are the Tysons, the Williams', and all those other rich guys from West Central Arkansas (where a gazillion of them eventually settled ~ once the authorities in Oklahoma Territory figured out they weren't really Indians).

Believe it or not there are independent conmen with no history of Gypsy ancestry who prey on the elderly. No group of humanity is free of having thieves! Gypsies have no monopoly in that regard.

As others have stated, their Indian origin is widely accepted. However, what I found new about this is the extensive DNA testing. A series on one of the educational channels a few years back focused on their history, they the proof of the linkage was primarily linguistic. I find this DNA work very interesting indeed. Thank you.

I bet there's no more shared ancestry between the Irish Travelers and Romanian Gypsies than there is between Lapplanders and Hottentots (among European Gypsies).

The Travelers don't even use Romany words ~ they have a totally different "secret language" which has it's roots in Gaelic.

Now, in America, it's different. Odds are George "W" Bush has an Hispanic nephew for example, and John McCain has a daughter from India.

None of these folks are doing flamenco dancing, but they can if they wish.

When the police determined that gypsies were involved they simply dropped the case as impossible to prosecute.

Not to excuse the gypsies but there are a lot of people preying on the elderly with impunity. A man I knew who was in his 80's and who lived alone was conned out of tens of thousands of dollars by a US Navy veteran. After my elderly friend had to move to an assisted living facility, the ex-submariner kept coming around in the guise of being a helpful visitor, but probably just to see if the relatives were on to him yet. One night my friend died and soon after the full scope of this crime became clear. The prosecutor refused to do anything and the criminal probably went on to more victims. I have often wondered if he somehow helped to hasten the death of my friend in order to try to cover up his crime.

Sometimes I see elderly people in the bank who are withdrawing money and who appear to be accompanied by someone who is waiting for payment. The banks should be very suspicious of this.

The trouble with finding out would be sifting through the lies. Did you know that there are also Gypsy words in some homosexual slang, gathered through the carnies' contacts in travelling theatre?

ER personnel are often in contact with Gypsies. The police arrest someone, who immediately gets "chest pains" and has to be brought to the ER. Then the arrestee can't speak English. One spoke Romanian, in an ER not too far from DC. There was a nurse who spoke Romanian back to her! LOL! Immediately the patient forgot her Romanian and changed to some other gibberish.

If you could get past the lies, the study of these erstwhile Irish "gypsies" could be fascinating history. But, like everything else, they'd even steal that.

At the risk of perpetuating stereotypes, I thought I'd relate a personal story.

My parents rented one of their houses to Gypsies in Whittier, CA, about 20 years ago. They trashed the place and stuck them with the rent.

At the risk of further perpetuating stereotypes, I'll relate a national travesty:

Bill Clinton is part Gypsy.
When it was time for him to move out of the Whitehouse, him and his tribe trashed the place and even moved out with the furniture. Didn't they steal some doorknobs and silverware too?

Look, being Gypsy is more culture than it is blood, so I'd say Billzo wasn't exactly "part" Gypsy, but rather the whole thing!

Remember the tv interview with that ol'gal he hit on at the White House? Bill offered her a cup of coffee. He went back to the area where they kept the coffee cups and all he had there were Starbucks cups.

So where were the White House cups, and where in the world did he get the Starbucks cups?

I'd say that was a double scam.

You know he spent his summers with his maternal grandmother traveling with the carnivals.

My father in law let a bunch of gypsies paint his barn too. Whatever they used washed off & took the galvanize off with it. The barns rusted immediately. Gypsies are scum. My brother in law sold some scrap metal to a bunch of gypsies who arrived at our place of business in a pink Lincoln. He let them have it at a fair price. The gypsies went behind his back to some of our employees & tried to get them to load up more than they had paid for. Gypsies deserve their reputation as scum.

I had read a few years ago that Bill Clinton, through the Blythe family (his father of record; he later took his stepfather's surname), is descended from the Irish Travelers, who are not genetically related to the Romany Gypsies and who generally have a Northern European appearance. One story is that the ex-President's grandfather, Bill Blythe, was the "King of the Gypsies."

I don't know if these stories are true. There does seem to be an element of petty criminals in Slick Willie's family tree, not apparently related to any known Traveler kinsmen. For instance, his maternal grandfather, Eldridge Cassidy, was allegedly a bootlegger in Hope, AR. Another relative was a bookie in Hot Springs, AR.

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