Ready to rumble? Village Voice Author, Rick Perlstein, Here to Debate the Freeper Horde

08/03/2004 | Rick Perlstein

[dead]

Opening Statement

Dear FRiends:

I once suffered two great frustrations in being a freelance political writer. First, the loneliness: you put an article out there, and you might as well have thrown it down a black hole for all the response you get. Second, the ghettoization: when you do get response, it would be from folks you agree with. Not fun for folks like me who reliish--no, crave and need--political argument.

Then came the Internet, the blogs--and: problem solved.

I have especially enjoyed having my articles in the Village Voice posted on Free Republic by "dead," and arguing about them here. The only frustration is that I never have enough time--and sometimes no time--to respond as the threads are going on. That is why I arranged for an entire afternoon--this afternoon--to argue on Free Republic. Check out my articles and have at me.

A little background: I am a proud leftist who specializes in writing about conservatives. I have always admired conservatives for their political idealism, acumen, stalwartness, and devotion. I have also admired some of their ideas--especially the commitment to distrusting grand social schemes, and the deep sense of the inherent flaws in human nature. (To my mind the best minds in the liberal tradition have encompassed these ideals, while still maintaining that robust social reform is still possible and desirable. My favorite example is the Protestant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, author of the Serenity Prayer and a great liberal Democrat.)

Lately, however, I've become mad at the right, and have written about it with an anger not been present in my previous writings. It began with the ascension of George Bush, when I detected many conservatives beginning to care more about power than principles. The right began to seem less interesting to me--more whiny, more shallow--and, what's more, in what I saw as an uncritical devotion to President Bush, often in retreat from its best insights about human nature.

I made my strongest such claim in a Village Voice article two weeks ago in which I, after much thought, chose to say conservatism was "verging on becoming an un-American creed" for the widespread way conservatives are ignoring the lessons of James Madison's great insights in Federalist 51 that in America we are supposed to place our ultimate trust in laws, not men.

Finally, in what I see as the errors of the Iraq campaign, I recognize the worst aspects of arrogant left-wing utopianism: the idea that you can remake a whole society and region through sheer force of will. I think Iraq is a tragic disaster (though for the time being the country is probably better off than it was when Saddam was around--but only, I fear, for the time being).

I am also, by the way, a pretty strong critic of my own side, as can be seen in my latest Village Voice piece.

So: I'm yours for the day--until 7:10 pm CST, when I'm off to compete in my weekly trivia contest at the University of Chicago Pub. Until then: Are you ready to rumble?

Respectfully,
Rick Perlstein

[Vigilantcitizen]

Mr. Perlstein,

I, for one, enjoyed your visit here and hope you find time to come back.

Although I don't agree with your views, I admire the 'nads it took to come here and defend them.

Dead, good job.

[section9]

Good God, do you mean to tell me that Perlstein used Wilson, that two bit con-artist who didn't even have the common decency to tell Josh Marshall that it was okay for the latter to stop defending him?

Rick, please butch it up.

Friends don't let Friends cite Joe Wilson as a source for anything, not after his justifiably painful horsewhipping by Glenn Reynolds, Gregory Djerejian, and Andrew Sullivan.

Self-promoting phony. "Politics of Truth" indeed. Even the Kerry people were smart enough to remove the link to Wilson's website.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[Perlstein]

It would seem that you are the pot calling the kettle black considering how much you and your publication shilled for Bill and Hillary during their reign of terror.
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Are you serious? Did you really read the Voice in the '90s? Clinton was attacked from the left ALL THE TIME.

[nonliberal]

It began with the ascension of George Bush, when I detected many conservatives beginning to care more about power than principles...what's more, in what I saw as an uncritical devotion to President Bush, often in retreat from its best insights about human nature.

We have a Bingo!!

[don-o]

I, for one, enjoyed your visit here and hope you find time to come back.

Although I don't agree with your views, I admire the 'nads it took to come here and defend them.

What VC said.

[cake_crumb]

"...Of all Presidents in post WWII America, Carter has been the most destructive to the interests of America...yes even worse than Clinton"

Agreed. Carter cured me of liberalism back in the '70's.

[foreshadowed at waco]

One thing that I really despise about the extreme left is their hypocrisy and utter dishonesty regarding abortion. Camille Paglia and Nat Hentoff are honest enough to admit that a fetus is a living being. Most of the pro-choice movement, however, is a scam. Let's face some ugly facts. The abortion lobby is big business in America. Close to 1,300,000 abortions a year means over $1 billion dollars into the coffers of Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers who oppose 'informed consent'. Recently, they opposed sonograms for poor women so that they cannot make an informed choice. (Seeing fingers and toes can be an abortion turn-off, you see.)

As a NYC school teacher, I cannot even take a student for a slice of pizza without parental consent but the pro-choice movement has managed to usurp parental rights in this regard. Never are the stats for abortion-related mothers' deaths discussed but we are continually fed images of hangers and back alley abortions.

The abortion industry has nothing on Halliburton IMHO. The Democratic Party machine seem to want to keep the poor and ignorant on the pro-death plantation while the elites want to control the population by any means necessary. BTW Margaret Sanger was a racist while Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were vehemently opposed to abortion. Food for thought.

[WOSG]

I am kind of disappointed ... I fired off 13 posts to him on the thread. And to make it easy, asked direct questions in each one.

ZERO replies.

I think my questions were too high calibre for him to spit back quickly. I respect his willingness to show up and all, but didnt really make much headway in actual debate.

If he wants to get back later I'm all ears (or eyes).

[Perlstein]

<> Tell me where you're extrapolating this from. Is it that I say corporations that dump mercury into rivers shouldn't sponsor the Demoratic Party? I really don't get where I say this. Is it because I say real incomes have stagnated in the last 30 years? How is that calling corproations evil?

[section9]

Oh, speaking of freaking which, Perlstein, which dorm were you in while you attended the College? I didn't move around much, although my second roomate ended up at one of the towers down near Woodlawn, near Jimmy's.

I was in Hitchcock-Snell, fourth floor, in a room that was rumored to have been Leopold and Loeb's. I did a flyby a couple of weeks ago on my way to O'Hare but couldn't figure out whether Jimmy's Woodlawn Tap was still open or not.

Oh, and is Regenstein still sinking into the muck?

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[Last Visible Dog]

Give me a break. I'm not saying Perlstein's numbers are correct. If you are so critical of him for citing to an article that doesn't support his claim, then you are giving Southack a complete pass for doing exactly the same thing. I guess the only think that really matters is which side of the argument you are on, not the quality of the evidence.

My point was against people that make bold claims but can not back them up with facts (Perlstein). Beyond that I am not sure what you are talking about.

[Vigilantcitizen]

1. Bush weapons inspector David Kay says there is no evidence. David Kay was on the ground for months investigating the activities of Hussein's regime. He concluded "But we simply did not find any evidence of extensive links with Al Qaeda, or for that matter any real links at all." He called a speech where Cheney made the claim there was a link "evidence free."
2. The 9/11 Commission says there is no evidence. The staff report of the 9/11 commission concluded that there was "no credible evidence" that Hussein and al-Qaeda were collaborating. According to the commission, Bin Laden was hostile to Hussein's secular government and Hussein never responded to requests for help in providing training camps or supplies.
3. Colin Powell says there is no evidence. In January, Colin Powell said there was no "concrete evidence" of a connection between Hussein and al-Qaeda.
4. The U.N. says there is no evidence. Michael Chandler, The chairman of the Security Council group monitoring sanctions against al-Qaeda said there was "no evidence of a link between the terrorist organization and the former Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein."

---

Oh Peach. Would you please educate the nice young man. I would, but my main box, where that information is stored, blew a power supply last week, and I haven't repaired it yet.

[Perlstein]

We either do this or nuke the place. Or, we eventually get nuked ourselves.
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Nuked by who? Any conceivable enemy MIGHT have less than a dozen warheads. We have thousands. Any country that nukes us would be glass before sunset. Come on. You can come up with a better argument than this for invading Iraq.

[ODDITHER]

As wifh many lberals - you begin the debate with a 'when did you quit beating your wife" type statement and expect an honest debate.

Iraq has been an oustanding success. millions of people are now free;a brutal dictator and staff are either dead,captured, or hiding; thousands of terrorists have been killed or captured. Most ot the services have been restored some are better than before the war. As wars go, casualities have been very light. Iraq has it's own govt.

The only people that believe if is a failure are those who want us to fail. Terrorists, France, N Korea, Hollywood and fhe radical left.

Think about it - an article in the newspaper described Kerry's camp as being "Giddy" when fhey found out that the economy didn't do as well ae expected-

They are excited when another soldier is killed, another terrorist attack takes place, or anofher dictator calls us names or threatens us.

How can Kerry be that cold and mean?

How can you debate issues when the issue is made up or based on a false premise?

I believe fairy dust is harmtul for our children, Sen Kerry hae been a miserable failure in fhe Senafe protecting us from fairy dust. He has had 30 years to pass a law banning it and did nothing.

[King Prout]

unfortunately, I shall not be in New York

unfortunately, I may not on this forum express my advice to those FReepers who shall, and might chance upon some such f***wits committing this vile act...

I shall say this to any of you who are telepathic and take my loudly-thought but untyped advice to heart: I shall gladly contribute to your legal defense fund if you need it.

[Tench_Coxe]

" I appreciate that Rick has taken time to get live on this thread. I think it may be a first for a writer with an actual paying gig."

Actually, I believe David Horowitz had a session on FR some years ago.

[DocRock]

"Saddam and Al Q:

1. Bush weapons inspector David Kay says there is no evidence. David Kay was on the ground for months investigating the activities of Hussein's regime. He concluded "But we simply did not find any evidence of extensive links with Al Qaeda, or for that matter any real links at all." He called a speech where Cheney made the claim there was a link "evidence free."
2. The 9/11 Commission says there is no evidence. The staff report of the 9/11 commission concluded that there was "no credible evidence" that Hussein and al-Qaeda were collaborating. According to the commission, Bin Laden was hostile to Hussein's secular government and Hussein never responded to requests for help in providing training camps or supplies.
3. Colin Powell says there is no evidence. In January, Colin Powell said there was no "concrete evidence" of a connection between Hussein and al-Qaeda.
4. The U.N. says there is no evidence. Michael Chandler, The chairman of the Security Council group monitoring sanctions against al-Qaeda said there was "no evidence of a link between the terrorist organization and the former Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein."

---

WMD's ?
USA Today
Fox News
Washington Post
San Diego Union Tribune

Al Qaeda Ties? Notice the airliner (Sept 11, 2001), and train cars, (Madrid 3/11/04), in the Salman Pac terrorist training facility outside Baghdad in this 2000 satellite photo. Click the image to get high resolution.

[Perlstein]

"Of course, two years after Bush made his pledge, only 2 percent of the AIDS money has been distributed (in any event, it will mainly go to drug companies). And appearing earnest in the presence of African Americans has been a documented Bush strategy for wooing moderate voters since the beginning."

Are you of the opinion that mans supposed destruction of the rainforest is quite possibly causing the extintion of plant and animal species that could hold the key to finding the cure for AIDS and other viruses?
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Sounds possible, though I don't know how you'd prove it. The theory sounds a little fanciful. Who has advanced it? I've never heard it before.
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Also, is it possible that of the nearly 40 million aborted babies since 1973 that several of them could have been the scientist that would have discovered said cures?
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Terrible argument. Could have been the mad scientist who hatched some genocidal plan for mankind. This is just silly talk.

[King Prout]

IIRC - only because he wasn't LEFT ENOUGH

[cake_crumb]

"Bush has unprecedented control over congress"

Obviously you are mistaken. As for Republicans controlling both houses, a majority of one is hardly an argument for unprecedented control and many of those with Rs in front of their name vote more along the lines of Tom Daschle than, say, Rick Santorum. The Republican House gets things passed in good time. They die in the Senate.