Posted on 08/01/2004 3:09:43 AM PDT by lizol
Warsaw uprising: How to heal the wounds?
Gerhard Schroeder will be the first German Chancellor to attend Poland's commemorations of the Warsaw uprising. Poland's Prime Minister, Marek Belka, is keen for the German Chancellor to dispel the "bad atmosphere" between their two countries on the 60th anniversary of the uprising.
The Warsaw uprising against their Nazi occupiers lasted for 63 days and resulted in the deaths of about 200,000 Poles and the total destruction of the city.
The Polish resistance believed that Russia, US and UK would provide assistance but very little help arrived.
Mr Belka has also said that the Polish people would welcome an apology from Britain for not doing enough to assist the Warsaw uprising.
How should the wounds over the Warsaw uprising be healed? Are Germany and Poland good neighbours now? And should the UK apologise? Send us your views.
The following comments reflect the balance of opinion we have received so far:
Some wounds take a long time to heal, but it is nevertheless admirable that the Germans have seized the opportunity for reconciliation. It is a landmark event that is representative of bright prospects for EU unity. Prashanth Parameswaran, Malaysia
While 60 years is a long time, Britain should apologize out of guilt at least - 200,000 people is a devastating loss. Prashanth Parameswaran, Malaysia
WD Krueger, Udonthani, Thailand The uprising clearly demonstrated that aspirations and hopes of the people are always being ignored by politics. Stalin halted the Red Army to wait for his own hidden agendas and the allies did nor provide any help for their own hidden agendas. Churchill of course had already drawn a map with Stalin as to who has what say in what area that was to become the Soviet Union's cordon sanitaire until 1989 when the USSR collapsed. WD Krueger, Udonthani, Thailand
We went to war for Poland in 1939, we bankrupted a huge Empire fighting it, we had no way to stop the Nazi's in 1944 in Poland, and we certainly didn't have any way of stopping Russia taking over Poland after the war. Theo, UK
During the World War II living under the German terror unimaginable for the people from the west Poland being a western ally lost: 25% of its population 39% of doctors 33% of teachers 26% of lawyers 70% of industry 90% of cultural heritage (in Warsaw alone) We do not need apologies (perhaps for the Germans) but we ask you to remember about that Tom, Warsaw
Apologies are absurd once the leadership of the generation who offended, or not, are dead. Make no exceptions to that rule and you cannot go wrong. Andrew, London
Poland should celebrate and be very proud of the bravery of their fellow citizens that, against great odds, stood up to the Nazis and fought back with everything they had. France surrendered quickly and yet has no problem throwing annual fancy glittery parades and praising their role in the war. Don't worry about "old wounds", celebrate Poland's brave and noble stand against Nazis. I salute you, Poland. Alistair Asquith, NJ, US / London, UK
How can the wounds of World War II be counted as "healed" when today the few thousand European Jews left on the Continent are again leaving it to escape resurgent anti-Semitism, as well as the apathy of "good Europeans" who stand by and do nothing to stop it? Cole, USA
The Polish patriots who died fighting need no phoney apologies from present day politicians. Anyone who reads the history and views the photos knows what happened. The UK WWII conduct was second to none. Everyone present here now should be thankful. xtela, USA
I think Poland doesn't need apology. What Poland needs is good memory to trust no allies. Artur, Krakow, Poland
I personally do not think that Poland need any "apology" from the UK but simply recognition of some basic facts: Poland was the first country to oppose both Germany and Soviet Union in 1939. Its contribution to the allies' victory was huge and the Warsaw uprising (when on Hitler's order Warsaw was razed to ground and 150 000 civilians executed) Monte Cassino, Battle of Britain, Normandy are examples of heroic battles polish soldiers fought. Not to mention breaking the Enigma code and delivering it to England or alarming the Allies about Germans' death camps. For all of that we and other nations were left under Soviets for 50years Tadeusz, Krakow, Poland
Russia seems to get a lot of criticism for the failing to come to the aid of the Warsaw uprising. I have read Russian supreme commander Georgi Zukov's war journal and he said the Red Army had been fighting continuously for six weeks before arriving at the gates of Warsaw and was in need of rest and re-supply. Certainly from the military standpoint an army cannot fight continuously, and changing from open ground to urban warfare requires a different mix of weapons and tactics; tanks are especially vulnerable in city streets. Perhaps the political leadership of the Polish resistance should have co-ordinated with Russians, rather than trying to go it alone. Douglas Helmson, Glasgow
Poland seem to be the forgotten ally of WW2. They fought alongside the RAF and at Monte Cassino after their own country had been lost to the Germans. They lost over 120,000 troops that fought with the allies and another 60,000 men in the first 17 days of the German/Russian invasion of their own country. I feel they were woefully betrayed by the allies. In particular the USA and Russia. I don't really think Churchill had a choice when Poland was tossed away to the Soviets at the end of the war. It's good to see some form of reconciliation between Poland and Germany after 60 years though. Richard Fforbes, Warwickshire
The UK has always been treated by the Poles as a good ally and good friend. We had and still have strong and long relationship that I'm sure will be strengthened further in the years to come. During the Warsaw uprising Poland was let down by lack of confidence on the side of Britain and by the non-action. I think this is the main thing that hurts Poles today. If a Britain feels themselves as an ally of Poland, then they should apologise...if not, let's forget it. Pawel, London
No matter what we do, no matter how much we help, somebody always has to kick us in the teeth. Robert Sutton, Halifax, England
It is commendable and noble to see Gerhard Schroeder and Collin Powell attend the Uprising's 60th Anniversary. It is deplorable and shameful not to see Vladimir Putin attend. The wounds will not heal until the Soviet Government admits to deliberately withholding assistance to the insurgents. Paul Balcer, Herndon, VA
60 years, don't you think it's about time we let bygones be bygones? The people that made the orders at the top are long dead, move on, never forget, but don't dwell Paul Weaver, London, UK
After all these years thanks God many feelings has changed in Europe. The nightmares and evil spirits of those times are only memories now. There's no reason for Poland and Germany not to be good neighbours. Let's allow healing to work. As to Britain's apologies, they're no longer necessary. Mazurek, Brazil
Of course not! The British are continually told that this is all in the past and that we are now part of a United Europe. Germans no longer feel guilty about what they did and I fail to see why we should either. Perhaps an apology from Germany would be more appropriate? Mark S, UK
As a an Englishman at that time I felt totally ashamed at how we made promises and then abandoned them so quickly. I realize it was virtually impossible to realistically intervene but then don't falsely encourage. To compound matters never since then has any British leader had the courage or decency to apologise or offer reparations. Tony Blair should do both immediately, and apologise for the delay too. Jim Nicholls, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
It's true that Michael wrote a few strange opinions (for example that about "German soil"), however he has never said anything so stupid like mikvahyid, who doesn't have even elementary historic knowledge, but of course he knows everything !
I think that this guy joined FR to say us that Jews are great and the rest is worthless.
You see, within Polish authorities in exile in London there was a representative of Polish Jews - as probably the biggest minority in pre-war Poland. Unfortunately - I don't remeber his name.
He was trying desperately to help his compatriots in Poland by telling people in the West what's happening to Jews in occupied Poland. But no one believed him. His attempts to organise any help had no result at all. And because of that he commited suicide.
Exactly, he was the man, that I thaught of.
"These are signs from the Warsaw Ghetto, it says "Juden", Jews, not Poles".
"These are Jews leaving the Ghetto, not Poles".
Please, mikvahyid, don't be ridiculous. Of course all the pictures are related to the Jews, because it was Jewish ghetto, not Polish. The Poles coulddn,t enter ghetto area, if anyone did, he would be shot. So it would be pointless to place in ghetto any signs relating to the Poles.
Outside ghetto, on the - so called "aryan" side there were also many places "nur fur Deutsche" (for the Germans only).
Polish Heritage Bump.
(((First they came for the Communists,
and I didnt speak up,
because I wasnt a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
In the interest of historical accuracy the quote is actually as follows:
First they came for the Communists,
and I didnt speak up,
because I wasnt a Communist.
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didnt speak up,
because I wasnt a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didnt speak up,
because I was a trade unionist.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.
by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
THEY, in fact never came for the Catholics or the Protestants.
A unique article on the quote by someone who knew pastor Niemoller is here: http://www.christianethicstoday.com/Issue/009/First%20They%20Came%20for%20the%20Jews%20By%20Franklin%20H%20Littell_009_29_.htm
As a side note I would like to point out that I have aknowledged when people have corrected me, and tanked them, even though it was sometimes with a little sarcasm. I wish to point out that the major difference between the Warsaw Ghetto and the Warsaw uprising was that the Warsaw Ghetto from the beginning was designed to facilitate the annihilation of the Jews. The Polish population was conquered under the Nazis, but they were not slated for destruction as the Ghetto was. If they had not rebelled they would be living in Warsaw and perhaps speaking German.
"I wish to point out that the major difference between the Warsaw Ghetto and the Warsaw uprising was that the Warsaw Ghetto from the beginning was designed to facilitate the annihilation of the Jews."
We really know It. I wrote it in #7.
Poles were treated terribly, however Jews were treated even worse - this is fact, but I still don't get your point. What do you want to tell us ? Maybe we should tell at the 60 anniversary of Warsaw Uprising: 200.000 Poles were killed in Warsaw Uprising, but it doesn't matter, because Jews were treated worse !!!
Those Jews were also part of Poland. Most of theme were Polish citizens if you like it or not.
The French uprising was in the Vercors region, on the Glières Plateau. The Resistants thought it was time to stop harras the Germans and to gather, according to Allied war plans. But they did that much too early, and got surrounded and isolated on the Plateau.
As a matter of fact, there was Allied help, in the form of supplies and ammunition paradropped. But the Germans quickly overran the drop zones, and the guys there either died or were sent to death camps, IIRC. As irregulars, they got no special treatment. In one instance, the Germans soldiers allegedly killed everybody in a cave that served as a field hospital.
Thanks for the info about Vercors.
I wish my French was one-tenth as good as your English. I agree with you that this Franco-American flame war is way out of hand. French politics are so byzantine that Americans will never really understand them. And most Americans have forgotten about the battles of the Chesapeake and Yorktown.
We tend to remember WWII and forget who helped us win our own revolution.
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