I am starting to think going to Iraq was a mistake

MMI | 4/30/04 | MDP

[Check_Your_Premises]

As an avid supporter of the President's Iraq policies, the last few days have been difficult for me. The number of casualties seemed to reach a "critical mass" for me. I found myself simply not caring to sacrifice anymore of our brave soldiers for Iraqi independence and democracy. Screw 'em.

I was not sure why I began to feel this way. As I said I am an avid supporter of the plan to bring an oasis of freedom and liberty to the 12th century toilet that is the middle east. It seemed to me that if we are to end terrorism we have to destroy the sources, which are the failed states and ideology of that region.

Why not? We have succeeded at such things in the past. We transformed post war Germany and Japan into thriving and peaceful democracies. Unfortunately, we have also failed at such things in the past. Of course, I am speaking of the war that Teddy Kennedy's brother got us into.

The one problem I had with liberating Iraq from Saddam's clutches is that we were removing one of the most important steps to the forming of a successful democracy. The successful overthrow of tyranny is a process that produces the type of leaders that are required to bring the successful transition from tyranny to liberal democracy. By liberating Iraq, for the Iraqis we were not allowing their "Founding Fathers" to become. It is of course worth noting that such leaders may never have been produced.

It seems to me now that the war in Iraq suffers from the same fatal flaw as the war in Vietnam. I may be speculating here, but it seems we simply cared more than the South Vietnamese, that their nation remain free. No American should be expected to die defending the home of another not willing to do the same. In the same sense we seem to care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do themselves. This is why I don't really care anymore. If they truly cared or understood their fate, they would be dying ten to our one. And in that case I think the American people would support them steadfastly. God knows I would.

So what was different about our success stories, Japan and Germany. Well we basically bombed the entire nation back into the stone age. I think their civilians were probably so glad that we weren't going to execute our own "final solution" to the "Japanese and German question", that they were willing to do whatever we said. It is also worth noting that in annhilating their armies we effectively removed any person who would be opposed to our efforts. As George Will put it recently, they "knew they were defeated".

So the question is if:
1) we care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do (something we could only have known in hindsight), and
2)we are not willing to wage total war until all opposition is removed,

than how can we possibly win there?

Well I think you see where I am getting at. General Sherman would probably agree with me. However since we do not have the will to fight this way, it is clear that we cannot win until that fact changes. What could bring such a change of will about? Unfortunately, I think we are victims of our own success in preventing further terrorist attacks. Until every man, woman, child, and leftist acutely feels that they are in grave danger of death at the hands of these murderers, America will not be ready to do what she must to win this war.

Until we are ready, maybe we should hold off on any further "imperialist" adventures in the world's excretory regions.

Semper Fidelis

MDP

[LS]

This war is not about "freedom" for the Iraqi people. I understand Pres. Bush has to "sell it" this way, but the fact is this is about OUR national security and REMOVING sources of support for terrorists. This is simply too harsh for most of the public to hear, and the admin has softened it by emphasizing removing Saddam, downplaying the AQ connection, playing up the WMD connection. But the bottom line is that if there is "freedom" for the Iraqis, it will be a by-product of cleaning out the terrorists there, which is really what is going on.

[jwalburg]

So many watching this thing are like a child watching a chess master and viciously scrutinizing his sacrificing of a pawn. They're in way over their heads...

Nice analogy

[vandykelastone]

Devoid of substance. Couldn't have described you better myself. Well, maybe.

[cinFLA]

3. It was clear to me even in 2002 that this was nothing more than a veiled attempt at "nation-building," by a President who had promised as a candidate in 2000 not to engage in nation-builing.

Seems you missed 9-11.

[Hammerhead]

my thoughts are that you're probably gonna be accused of being a DU troll for voicing an independent thought.

[Alberta's Child]

Your assessment is completely incorrect. I pointed out on another thread that the price of oil was actually lower on March 31, 2004 than it had been on March 31, 2003. What has changed in the last year is that the value of the U.S. dollar has declined substantially over that period, resulting in a rise in the cost of imports. The decline of the U.S. dollar has almost nothing to do with terrorism -- it is primarily caused by our own idiotic fiscal policies.

[SerpentDove]

We didn't go to iraq to liberate them. That was a byproduct.

We went because of the Hussein regime's weapons violations.

Where are they, you may say? I don't give a crap. He had them, and now both his sons are dead, and he is in the hoosegow. Not much left of the regime.

War is Hell.

Semper Fi

[#1CTYankee]

Did Werewolf kill any allied soldiers or politicians *after* June 1945????

Attacks continued up until 1950.
The military kept a lid on a lot of this, actual number of deaths (To the best of my knowledge.) are not a matter of record

[Shermy]

I am starting to think going to Iraq was a mistake

We'd been "there" since 1991.

[kinsman redeemer]

... Today, people do not seem to realize that there is a cost for freedom. They think it is "free." On every level, freedom's price is blood.

I thank every veteran that I meet for assuring that I can enjoy the God-given blessings that they have protected.

[Alberta's Child]

The difference is that you are the LOYAL opposition. Our honest disagreements are based on concern for the good of our nation.

Absolutely, and thanks for pointing that out.

For anyone here who has seen the movie "Last of the Mohicans," I consider myself very similar to the character Hawkeye -- the one who best personified the American spirit. I'll expand on that if anyone is interested.

[Hammerhead]

actually, Im beginning to think that democracy is hopeless for these people.

in the future we should just kill the heads of state as a warning to future heads of state not to make trouble with us or else.

[MineralMan]

I'm replying to your first post, but have read the rest of the thread so far.

As you'd expect, a lot of Freepers are taking your concerns as being opposed to Bush. I don't see that in your post.

We can win this war in Iraq, no question. At some point, we will pull our troops out and some sort of Iraqi government will be in place. That point is not now.

However, I have some deep concerns about what happens after we do that. Given the sectarian conflicts in Islam, and in Iraq, it's pretty predictable that a government as we know it and love it is going to be very difficult to maintain.

Iraq could very easily slip back into the thuggery and despotism it had before we went there. We got rid of Sadaam, but we're not going to get rid of all the other potential Sadaams.

I'm concerned about the outcome of this thing...not because of the number of casualties, which is quite low in comparison with our past wars. I'm concerned because I'm not at all sure that as stable, friendly government in Iraq is even possible.

This is not Bush's fault, of course, but it is his dilemma. Inviting the former military folks from the Sadaam regime may solve the immediate problem. I doubt that it is a good idea in the long term.

Of course, only time will tell.

[biblewonk]

I think the fight for liberty in a country can take years. If you're ready to give up within 12 months or so, then feel free to support John Kerry -- you'll find many like-minded people in his camp. I don't mean to sound churlish, but it's hard for me to deal with the idea of handing our enemies a victory -- it won't happen while George W. Bush is President, thank heaven.

"Liberty", "John Kerry", "handing our enemies a victory", "George W Bush". You must be a speech writer. I think I got a bingo on my cliche buzzword bingo card.

[Smartass]

The world wide war on terrorism is not played out like
a video game, or will be over in week, month or year.
The terrorist organizations have been at it for years.
Iraq is the biggest of the wars (plural). At this very
moment, there are small battles going on all over
involving our special ops. Not like Iraq that has gotten
daily headlines, these small battles will never see the
day of light. However, we're in it for the long haul,
or cave in to Islamofacists. There is no other choice.

[John Lenin]

The democrats are working with the terrorists be it Arafat or Syria or whoever. Just look at Bill Clinton before you doubt what I am saying.

[Atlantic Friend]

Thanks a lot, Piranha, I will certainly do. Do not hesitate to ping me in case I miss an important thread.

[beckett]

The casualities, every one of which is tragic, are small and indicate more than anything else that the enemy is very weak. If you don't have the stomach for these kinds of troubles and hardships then you really never understood what we had to do after 911.

[Wolfhound777]

I'm glad we never took advice like this when things got tough during the Revloutionary War, or the Civil War, or WWI, or WWII, or . . . .

He wasn't giving advice and there is a lot of truth to what he says. If they don't care about freedom, the hell with them. It also has nothing to do with the going getting tough, the key point he is making is that we are not making the going tough on our enemies. We are not letting them know that they are defeated. This is a huge point, and if you consider the culture in the cesspool out here, you will know that force and strenght mean everything. Anything else is considered weakness and the islamic nut jobs will exploit it. We either kill them all or get the F#$k out. I am sick of our guys dying while we play politics and try to be the nice guy to a bunch of subhuman terrorists and thugs.

[doug from upland]

It breaks my heart every time I hear of another casualty. But this is more important than you recognize. The war is being fought there instead of here. The only problem is that we seem to be holding back when the force should be overwhelming.