Posted on 04/23/2004 4:21:45 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4
April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.
The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.
Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…
By that logic, there is no difference in stopping power between .22LR and .223
9mm +P+ has a muzzle energy of about 400 foot/lbs, while .357 SIG (more powder, higher velocity) is 490 ft/lbs, and .357 magnum (which has better on-the-street stopping stats than either 9mm or .45) is 524 ft/lbs
Stopping power comes from energy expended to disrupt the functioning of the target
I would be pleased to take your problem off your hands. I was an armorer in a headquarters company of a tank battalion with 410 M1911A1 pistols subjected to the slings and arrows of life aboard M60 and M60A1 tanks. There's very little that goes wrong with an M1911 that I can't cure.
Think about what you might want for it.
Don Stivers
THE LAST CHARGE ( 1987 )
INTERNATIONAL EDITION: 500, REGULAR EDITION: 1150, SIZE: 16" x 26"
The last mounted charge of the 11th U.S. Cavalry against the Villistas in Mexico begins to draw the curtain on the romance of the horsemounted branch of the army.
But you don't need to, because I just did.
Which negates a lot of its stopping power. The problem with the 9mm is that full-metal-jacket 9mm goes right thru, making a small hole, and expends much of its energy on whatever is behind the target.
A hollow-point 9mm would expand to about .45 diameter. A .45 is already at .45 diameter
It's amazing how a sidearm that served in two world wars, one police action, that little ten-year dust up in Southest Asia and enjoys massive popularity in civilian and law enforcement to this day almost 100 years later, was cast aside in favor of the M9.
I get that the U.S. was negotiating with Italy on behalf of NATO for use of the Italian air bases during the Cold War. I further get that the M9 was part of the deal, and that the decision was as much political as tactical.
But the Evil Empire is gone. We don't need Italian air bases -- at least not for the same purpose -- and the country is at war. If high cap. magazines are the issue, I don't see why whoever the Marines contract with can't come out with a high cap. design. Para Ordnance does it. And if there's enough money in the contract, Colt, Kimber of Springfied Armory can do it too.
I am now carrying a Sig P245, like the DA feature (Condition One always made me a tad nervous, grip safety or no grip safety). It's a nice pistol, good fit and finish, pretty accurate (not as accurate as my Haylar custom 1911A1, but that one's so tight I wouldn't want it as a carry gun . . . ) My only gripe to begin with was the magazine spring was so strong I had an awful time getting the last round in, but carrying a full magazine around for awhile seems to have solved that problem.
Actually, the longer slide offers a longer sight radius, the distance between front and rear sights, which in general makes sighting more precise, and quicker for older eyes...such as those of senior officers who get to choose which pistol their service will adopt. That was one reason for the fairly long-barrelled revolvers used for so many years, from the 7½-inch barrelled Colt Single Action revolvers of the post Civil War U.S. Cavalry on forward.
Note that there was also a General Dynamics sale of US F-16 fighter aircraft to Italy at the time, and the reciprocal sale by the Italians of their service pistol in exchange helped ease the deal through.
I really prefer the .45 ACP. Friend of mine was in Korea, and he said that every ChiCom he shot with the .45 went straight down and stayed there. My dad shot a guy at extreme range with a .45 in WWII - he aimed at his feet and hit him in the head (good shooting, dad! :-p ) but it knocked him down and out cold. Didn't kill him or even do him any permanent damage though. I have (thank heavens) never actually had to shoot anybody, but I know I can hit what I point at with it. But it may just be a case of preferring the weapon I'm most familiar with - I've put hundreds of rounds through the thing and I just believe in it. Like the Polish cavalry charging the Russian tanks with lances . . . :-D
Excactly. If I am behind enemy lines....give me a .22LR with a silencer. A sidearm is a personal thing, and depends entirely upon the mission.
Even better, we can shoot them with both hollowpoints and ball ammunition in various calibers, and see what works best.
I get dibs on the tasking to shoot some in the face with aviator's birdshot survival cartridges.
During the small arms portion of USN gunnery school, this redneck, know-it-all, Georgia boy laughed aloud at the instructors claim that a .45 has more stopping power than a .44 magnum.
Here's how he explained it...
The .45 round has a lower muzzle velocity than the .44 and other magnum rounds. This enhances the maximum expansion characteritics of the projectile in human flesh, making a large exit wound more of a reality at close range.
There is a point of dimished returns. Too much muzzle velocity, and the projectile can easily pass through the human body without expanding.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.