Posted on 04/23/2004 4:21:45 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4
April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.
The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.
Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…
I don't blame them.
While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it.
I was a gunner's mate in the USN from 86-89, and never carried anything but a M1911 while standing watch.
I don't mean to be a cheapskate or anything, but this means that the Marines are paying $1,727.27 per pistol, although I suppose the administrative costs of the procurement may have been included. Even so, this is the price of a topnotch custom pistol from makers like Wilson and Les Baer. In WWII and before, I'll bet the gov't was paying something like $35 per pistol, at most.
Personally, I'd rather get rid of that lousy popgun M16 and give back to our troops a real rifle, like an updated M14, with bayonets. Then we wouldn't hear any talk about lack of stopping power.
Heck, if they want stopping power in pistols, how about .357 revolvers. Those put the .45 to shame.
Ever shoot an M1911 gangsta style -- sideways? Just about break your wrist, and God knows where the round went.
Shoot it twice sideways -- blam blam -- I'd kill the guy in the next lane.
Love that gun.
By Mark Oliva, Stars and Stripes Pacific edition, Monday, August 5, 2002
Soldiers who fought in combat in Afghanistan are saying they want a better pistol. The one they have now, they say, isn’t doing the job.
An unclassified U.S. Army “Lessons Learned” report indicates some soldiers were dissatisfied with the performance of the M-9 9 mm Beretta pistol, the Army’s standard-issue sidearm — the same one used by soldiers during operations Anaconda and Mountain Lion in Afghanistan.
Nine soldiers completed surveys for the M-9 pistol. Only one reported firing his pistol in combat “to engage targets of opportunity at 15 me-ters.” No combat malfunctions were reported.
However, just 63 percent of soldiers surveyed said they felt confident with the M-9 and trusted its reliability. That compared with almost 90 percent who felt the same way about their M-4 rifles, even though they share similar complaints about lack of knock-down power.
Some soldiers criticized the pistol’s effectiveness. One said the 9 mm rounds were “inaccurate and not powerful enough.” Three soldiers indicated they wanted the Army to field a more powerful round.
Veterans who’ve used this gun have complained to Washington. Retired Col. David Hackworth, an author and vocal critic of military policy, wrote an open letter to Congress in July calling for more reliable weapons to be issued to the military.
“We went into Vietnam with a bad weapon, the M-16 rifle, which was responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers,” he wrote. “What the M-16 was to Vietnam, the Beretta is to Afghanistan. And a soldier with no confidence in his weapon isn’t the most motivated fighter.”
Hackworth said one Afghanistan veteran wrote him that, “I had to pump four rounds into an al-Qaeda who was coming at me before he dropped."
“Our issue M-9 pistol (Beretta M92F) is proving itself unreliable,” another wrote to Hackworth. “They are constantly breaking. To make matters worse, the 9 mm hardball round we use is a joke. It is categorically ineffective as a fight stopper, even at close range."
Some soldiers are coping by packing heftier .45-caliber pistols, similar to those used by generations of soldiers and Marines since before World War II. Such .45s remain in the U.S. military inventory, but the origin of those used in Afghanistan — military issue or privately owned — remains unclear.
What’s not unclear to several of those using the older weapon is its value. “It saved my life,” one Army Ranger told Hackworth. “I hit a number of enemy 30-40 yards away who went down immediately from my .45 rounds. With a Beretta, I wouldn’t have made it because of the far-too-light 9 mm bullet, play in the action and its limited range.”
A Special Forces sergeant in Afghanistan wrote to Hackworth, “The large-caliber, slow-moving .45 bullet puts the bad guys on the ground. Lighter stuff like the Beretta’s 9 mm will, too — eventually — but on the battlefield you almost always have to double tap, and in close combat a gunfighter hasn’t the time or the ammo to lose firing two rounds.”
The Army says it’s too soon to rush to judgment against the pistol. No changes are in store to replace the M-9 for soldiers, but Army Lt. Col. Robert Carpenter, the project manager for the weapons reports, said more interviews are on the way to figure out just where the problems lie.
“We are taking the opportunity just this past week to review the raw information and re-interview the same units, to include leaders and all the way up through the logistics channels in order to identify any areas that may require support,” he said — but added, “I don’t know of any immediate changes to be implemented.”
Nor is everyone convinced the M-9 needs to go. It’s the bullet, they say, that’s no good.
For instance, in a famous civilian case in the States, an expert testified that the bullets had low lethality.
Ken Cooper, a New York state-certified law-enforcement pistol instructor, testified in the infamous Amadou Diallo shooting by New York City police in 1999. Cooper said police fired 19 9 mm full-metal-jacket bullets — the same ones used by the U.S. military — into Diallo. Of those, Cooper said, just three had any effect on his body; only one of those was fatal.
“Controlled expansion rounds would have had a much more pronounced effect and therefore effective result,” he said.
Cooper favors the M-9 as a durable weapon — but carries a .45-caliber handgun. He said there are trade-offs; no one bullet will meet every requirement.
“It is not the caliber or gun that is primary in effectiveness,” he said. “The larger the round, the more tearing of blood vessels and dumping of kinetic energy. The military is restricted to using, in general application, hardball rounds. Even the larger .45 in military ball does little more than the abused 9 mm. A better bullet design combined with a well-trained operator makes a lethal and effective weapons system.”
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