It's religion gone mad

Toronto Sun ^ | April 17, 2004 | Michael Coren

[Clive]

HOW DOES one discuss the state of the Islamic faith, the Middle East, terrorism and the world without upsetting people? Frankly, it's almost impossible.

I'm not talking here of a fear of abuse and attack or of being accused of political incorrectness. I couldn't give a fig about that. No, I mean the need to hold on to common courtesy and avoiding making generalizations that could hurt good people.

Here are some recent examples, in that I have so little room to discuss this issue in full.

We used to be told by pop stars and other philosophers that "the Russians love their children too." It was self-evident then that all people loved their young. Now I'm not so sure. Do the Palestinians, for example, love their children too?

I should think most of them do.

But I have to be candid: many of them don't. We can't just rely on tired old relativism when we look at all this. Nobody who loves his or her child will send that little being out as a suicide bomber. Nobody who loves their children will line them up in front of tanks.

The natural instinct of a loving parent is to hide the children. Armed struggle and resistance I can understand, even if I do not approve. This, though, is something different. I've seen it myself. Mothers screaming for their tiny offspring to come out of the house, stand in front of Israeli patrols and throw stones at soldiers.

I take here no position on the causes of Israelis or Palestinians, but I do on the moral substance of a parent who would send children to fight the battles of adults.

Do not, please, tell me they have no option. There are legions of young Palestinian men willing to kill Israelis. It's just that children can sometimes be undetected. And are easily convinced of the delights of paradise in the world to come when, I quote, "Zionist skulls, blood and limbs fly against the walls."

British Muslim fundamentalists planned terror attacks and arrests were made in Ilford, England, my hometown. Boring Ilford may be, but nobody is oppressed there! Muslims who grew up with British democracy, free British health care, free British education and British tolerance have no reason to kill anyone, let alone those who gave them such privilege.

Remember, these people came to Britain, as they did to Canada, the United States and the rest of the free, Christian-based world to escape Islamic states and their harshness.

It is the pluralistic openness and decency of Europe and North America that has allowed so many Muslim immigrants. How ironic that a minority of those people hate that very pluralism and decency and want to slaughter women and children in the name of their god and their cause.

I opposed the war in Iraq, but I cannot remain silent when people kill contract workers, then disembowel and hang them from wires in the street. While children dance.

And, no, these murderers are not refugees from pain but the favoured sons of Saddam. Their fight is to restore fascism, not liberate their nation. Even if it was, nothing justifies such sadism.

German bomber pilots, their planes shot down, would parachute into London after destroying entire towns and killing thousands of people. Almost without exception they were treated properly, as prisoners of war.

It's not about colonization, globalization, Zionism, American dominance or any other cliches. The Muslims themselves are colonizers, having pushed most Christians out of the Middle and near East, once the cradle of the Christian world.

The Ottoman Turks, Muslims all, colonized the region for centuries. Arabs colonized Persians, Assyrians, Kurds and others. The Saudis, sponsors of so much terror, are nobody's victims. They are wealthy beyond belief, and deprive women and minorities of most basic civil rights.

This is something deeper, darker, than an imagined fight against a foreign foe. There is a virus at work. For the sake of the good, law-abiding Muslims of the world -- the majority -- we cannot pretend any longer it's about anything other than what it is: a religion gone mad and gone bad.

Stop the lies, they only make it worse.

[swarthyguy]

>>>issue a proclaimation that all the gods are really of the same substance, and in one fell swoop launch a monotheistic religion, without "killing off" any gods. The question is, could you still call him a

Pretty much describes huge swathes of IndoHindu societies in the Americas, Europe, Africa and India.

The Gods and Goddesses are not destroyed but enhanced, useful and appreciated for devotional rituals like singing and music, nominal or for festivals, without challenging either. Self styled but having built a following are Individuals who establish similar but slightly different congregations without challenging or denying the existing pantheon.

[beavus]

Many Hindus go further and believe all gods to be of the same substance--similar to the dominant Christian trinitarian approach. Some envision a hierarchy of deities, similar to the dominant form of Roman paganism, or the Catholic heresy Arianism.

However, back to the original subject, Islam does profess a single creator god and is therefore probably best considered monotheistic. It does admit angels and the devil, but like Catholicism, does not explicitly label them as "gods".

So, "pagan" really does not properly describe Islam any more than it does Roman Catholicism (unless, of course, one defines "pagan" as such a distinction, as some do).

[Kozak]

And thanks to Mohammed proclaiming himself the last prophet, there is no hope for major reform either.

Not only that but his book is alledged to be the actual Word of God dictated to Mad Mo by his angel. Not much room for interpretation or reformation there.....

[beavus]

Islam is indeed of pagan origin.

For the same reasons you give, Judaism may have been inspired by pagan traditions, perhaps with the Caananite head god El being selected as sole god Yahweh. El had a character much like that of Yahweh described in the Old Testament.

The doctrine is that Yahweh made himself known to Abraham in a pagan world (even if tradition holds that Yahweh was worshipped since Adam). Mohammed's claims are similar, except that he claims decent not from paganism, but the monotheism of Abraham. At any rate, Mohammed defined a religion just as monotheistic as Judaism.

It is hard to distinguish Islam and Judaism on monotheistic/polytheistic grounds.

[sasportas]

To deal your argument will take us into revelation vs reason. Which will probably go nowhere.

I accept and believe that the bible is the true revelation from God. Obviously you don't. Our discussion will come down to faith. I believe the biblical revelation... you don't.

By "God" I mean the one who revealed himself to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses... not to Mohammed. "Elohim" is not "Allah."

His "character," as you put it, is not fully revealed in the Old Testament, but in the incarnation. In Christ, we see Elohim's fully revealed character. As different from Islam's god as day is from night.

What are you anyway, a libertarian?

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

[beavus]

Sure, one's faith can take him anywhere, but I don't see why that should blind you to an objective analysis of available historical evidence. Intelligent devout people are still capable of skeptical inquiry independent of their faith.

You were taking such an analytical approach toward Islam, apparently unconcerned with the fact that Muslims also interpret their religion by faith. And, their faith tells them that there is and has always been just one god, the god of Abraham.

El was the head Caananite deity, supposedly both compassionate and judgemental, analogous to the image of Yahweh and the angels in the Old Testament. Obviously the historical evidence for this interpretation is greatly lacking and probably always will be. However, our experience with people shows that folks tend to build from what they know, rather than create something totally alien to them whole cloth. So, this view should not conflict at all with your faith. Whatever vision Abraham had, it was within the context of the world he knew.

[Valin]

Bump for later

[kjvail]

An excellent article, and as someone else mentioned it gives me a bit of hope. We in the West are inundated with the ridicoulous PC propoganda that Islam is a 'religion of peace' when anyone with a basic knowledge of world history knows it is not now and never has been. Furthermore due to it's nature it never can be. What we have here is a rapidly spreading cancer that must be destroyed utterly. I have no idea how to go about that really, nor am I sure it can be done. It is nice to see from the article and the thread there are a few out there that 'get it'. I see this conflict as a continuation of the struggle between Islam and the Judeo/Christian world, and as another stated, a continuation of the basic conflict between good and evil. I'm afraid tho the mostly secularized West may not wake up to this in time.
We prattle on about the 'root causes' of terrorism like poverty etc. but refuse to acknowledge the obvious - evil exists. Evil slaughtered 100s of millions in wars and genocide last century and this new century is shaping up to be worse. Islamofascists WILL get ahold of WMDs - tommorrow or 10 years from now - it is inevitable since they exist and are desired. When that happens it will not be attacks resulting in 30 or 3000 deaths but in attacks that result in 30,000 or 300,000 deaths. The beginnings:

Foiled al-Qaida Attackers Caught Red-Handed With WMDs
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/17/112546.shtml

I am a Catholic but not a Bible thumper and certainly not a wild-eyed Revelations quoter but when I read about the world being forced to worship the beast in the Book of Revelations I do wonder...
If we don't face reality and deal with evil for what it is Islam will win.

[Mind-numbed Robot]

Easy for you to say, cowboy. If you knew that your neighborhood, church, and maybe even your family was potentially infiltrated by clandestine murderous fanatics, would you really risk the life of you, your wife, and your children by standing out as a voice against these people?

I suppose you are right. It is much easier to let someone else take the risk and someone else's family to suffer the losses. However, the least they could do is stop complaining about being misunderstood. They are not. They are sitting back, out of fear I grant you, and letting the fanatics run the show. The fanatics are in the minority, as bullies always are, so there is no justifiable reason, other than fear, for letting them run the show.

[beavus]

They are sitting back, out of fear I grant you, and letting the fanatics run the show.

For a people who like to allude to Saladin, they do show a remarkable lack of courage. Doesn't appear to be a single Patrick Henry in the whole lot.

Actually, to be fair, some Kurds have been outspoken for a long time, but the press isn't very interested either in what they have to say or in their striking success in North Iraq. Also, Karzai and Musharraf probably are finding it hard to get life insurance these days.

[spodefly]

BTTT

[beavus]

If we don't face reality and deal with evil for what it is Islam will win.

I don't think Islam has a formula for success in the modern world. They won't win (assuming you mean worldwide Islam), but their worst factions are likely to be blight on humanity for a long time to come.

[kjvail]

"I don't think Islam has a formula for success in the modern world."

No they don't, but they don't want a 'modern' world - they see it as anthema and corrupt.

"They won't win (assuming you mean worldwide Islam), but their worst factions are likely to be blight on humanity for a long time to come."


I don't share your optimism - if killing a mere 200 or so 3 days before an election in a major Western nation causes the government to make radical changes to policy what would the death of 20,000 do?
Set of a bomb loaded with Sarin gas in the NYC subway system at 8 am or so and you could have just that.
See the problem is the leaders of these totalitarian Islamic dictatorships have no one to answer to except "Allah" himself - our President does not enjoy that kind of freedom of action. He will be held accountable, rightly or wrongly for such an attack. We have already seen the left's penchant for asking 'What did we do to deserve this'.

[happygrl]

Clive, it's a religion from the Pit.

It's Satan's Handiwork.

It's Evil.

[lainde]

bump and thanks!

[swarthyguy]

Wahhabs consider Catholics polytheists.

Their mantra that we're all peoples of the book doesn't really apply to Catholics. More shaving from the perv wahhabs.

And my theory is the Kaaba is really a Shiva Lingam.

Should we enlight Beavus, Shermy, on the Saffron Plan to set the monotheists at each others throats.

Nah. It's going too well anyway.

[Countyline]

"Should we enlight Beavus, Shermy, on the Saffron Plan to set the monotheists at each others throats."

Do you check out the religious threads? They are continually going at each other.

This thread is an interesting read. Let's pray the country wakes up; however, there are no signs of it. It seems many are much more concerned about what is of immediate benefit to their individual wants and American Idol, or other reality (anything but) shows.

[swarthyguy]

Nah, theology gives me the giggles and the munchies.

I stick to the smoking threads for flamewars.

[ZeitgeistSurfer]

Nazism - 50 million dead

Communism - 100 million dead

My prediction:

Islam - 250 million dead