Scholars: Crucifixion Portrayal Inaccurate

AP News ^ | Feb 19th,2004 | PETER ENAV

[missyme]

"Critics Never Stop"

JERUSALEM (AP) - The dearth of information about Jesus' crucifixion makes it impossible to describe the event in accurate detail, as Mel Gibson attempts to do in his new film, "The Passion of Christ," Bible scholars and anthropologists say.

The crucifixion is the centerpiece of the movie, set to open in U.S. theaters Feb. 25, Ash Wednesday on the Roman Catholic calendar.

People who have seen the movie say it adopts standard Christian imagery in excruciating detail: Jesus being pinioned to a Latin cross - a T-shaped device with a short upper extension - with one nail driven through both feet and one through each palm.

In a December e-mail sent to The Associated Press, Gibson said he did "an immense amount of reading" to supplement the Bible's relatively unadorned account of the crucifixion in the four Gospels.

"I consulted a huge number of theologians, scholars, priests, spiritual writers," Gibson wrote. "The film is faithful to the Gospels but I had to fill in a lot of details - like the way Jesus would have carried His cross, or whether the nails went through the palms of His hands or his wrists ... Since the experts canceled each other out, I was thrown back on my own resources to weigh the different arguments and decide for myself."

Some scholars say even the most widely recognized features of the crucifixion, such as the shape of the cross and the use of nails, are open to debate.

James F. Strange, professor of religious studies at the University of South Florida in Tampa, said 1st century historian Josephus provided only general information, probably because crucifixion was so common that details seemed superfluous.

Crucifixion was first used in the 5th century B.C., and was a widely used form of execution in Asia, Europe and Africa for the ensuing eight centuries, said Israeli anthropologist Joe Zias. Depending on technique, death could be swift or take days.

"If you suspended people by their hands and left their feet free you would kill them within an hour," Zias said. "If you suspended them in a way they couldn't exhale they'd be dead within minutes."

Zias said the question of whether Jesus was nailed to the cross or simply tied to it remains a mystery. "There is no evidence whatsoever he was nailed," he said. "The Gospels say he was crucified and leave it at that."

Zias criticized "The Passion of Christ" for accepting the standard version of three nails being used. He said experiments on cadavers carried out by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages have shown that people hanging with nails through their hands will fall to the ground within a relatively short time, pulled by gravity.

The Gospels suggest it took Jesus three to six hours to die.

"All this is Crucifixion 101," Zias said. "People who study these things understand them. But Gibson ignored them in his film."

John Dominic Crossan, emeritus professor of religious studies at DePaul University in Chicago, agrees with Zias that little is known about Jesus' execution.

"Early Christians believed that Jesus was nailed to the cross," he said. "But there is absolutely no proof of this. The only skeleton of a crucified person ever recovered indicated that the two arms were tied to a crossbar, and two nails were used in either shinbone. There was no standard procedure in any of this. The only common feature in the different types of crucifixion is intense sadism."

The type of cross in Jesus' execution is also in question, Crossan said. First century Romans are known to have used both a T-shaped device, without an upper extension, and the Latin cross that is standard in Christian iconography.

Each of the four Gospels says an inscription mocking Jesus as the "king of the Jews" was affixed to the cross. Crossan said this would have made sense "because the whole point of crucifixion was to warn people through alluding to a specific crime."

Two of the Gospels say the inscription was mounted above Jesus. This presumably would strengthen the argument for a Latin cross, which would have provided space for writing about the condemned man's head.

However, the other two Gospels don't give a locator. "It (the written warning) could just as easily have hung around his neck," Crossan said.

Crossan is also uncertain whether the cross on which Jesus was crucified was carried to the execution grounds - either by Simon of Cyrene, as three of the Gospels report, or by Jesus himself, according to John's account.

It is possible that the vertical part of the cross was kept at Golgotha, the place of Jesus' death, and that the condemned person carried the crossbar, Crossan said.

"The point is we simply don't know," he said, "not in general cases and not in the case of Jesus either."

[Modernman]

Thes ignoramusses are SMARTER than the Bible....at least theyn THINK so. Idiots....no proof Jesus was nailed, huh.....truly an IDIOTIC ANTI-CHRISTIAN statement.

By 'proof,' I think they're talking about non-Biblical proof. Whatever the Bible says is one thing, but there there does not seem to be independent proof that the crucifiction occurred as the Bible claims it did.

[Humal]

Thanks for posting this, safisoft. This is the scripture I was thinking of while reading this. In John 20:23-27 (The Living Bible), it is mentioned three times of the wounds in His HANDS and side. Nothing is mentioned of his feet. Were they tied to the cross or left to hang free. That would make the death faster, and there would be no need to break his legs (bones) as was prophesied.

[rdb3]

"There is no evidence whatsoever he was nailed," he said. "The Gospels say he was crucified and leave it at that."

"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." -- Psalms 22:16 which foretold the suffering of the Messiah.

"And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced." -- John 19:37 pointing out how this prophecy was fulfilled. The prophecy was in Zechariah 12:10.

"Then saith he [Christ] to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. " -- John 20:27 where Jesus is talking to Thomas (Doubting Tom) because Thomas did not believe that Jesus had rose from the dead.

So, Mr. Scholar, was Christ nailed to that cross or not?

[billbears]

My reading, 30 years ago, also indicated that there was no basis to conclude that Jesus was nailed to a cross. He was likely tied, with a small platform for his feet. He died of asphyxiation

That's the spirit!!! Rewrite the Bible to what we want it to say and our understanding. Heaven knows the disciples couldn't have actually seen what they wrote. Why? Because a 'scientist' told us so

John 20
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

But let's trust your reading and scientists over the Word of God Almighty. Right.....

[Libloather]

Some scholars say even the most widely recognized features of the crucifixion, such as the shape of the cross and the use of nails, are open to debate.

Ready, set, GO! - eh?

[Straight Vermonter]

I have always heard this explanation that nails in the hands would not support the weight of the body. However if the nail was used with a washer or similar device it would distribute the weight across the bones and not the soft tissue. This would amply support the victim. The Romans were sophisticated executioners. I am sure they could have thought of this.

[Swordmaker]

And the Romans did not take the bodies down after death. If a family member didn't remove the body, it simply hung on the cross, for vultures and other vermin to pick at.

This is wrong. The stipes (uprights) were reused... often. Executions were sometimes weekly and sometimes daily... and the stipes were kept in place. The condemned was nailed or tied to the patibulum (the cross piece) and then lifted onto the stipes. The bodies were taken down and tossed into a pit so the crosses could be reused.

The error that Mel makes is in having Jesus carry the entire cross, stipes and patibulum. Most likely the condemned men carried only the patibulum.

[Swordmaker]

Only if you consider the inaccurate depiction of the nails going thru the hand. The greek word for 'hand' includes the wrist where the bones would be able to hold without tearing.

The latest research using cadavers shows that each nail in the palm COULD actually support better than 60% of the body's weight. Given that the feet were also nailed, the likelyhood of pulling through the palm is small.

However, a professional executioner would not want even that small a chance of error. There is, however a solution that is much more logical than the nail through the wrist.

The original work done by Dr. Pierre Barbet concluded that the nails could only have gone through the wrists, specifically through the Space of Destot, is wrong. He used cadavers that had been dead for some time and suspended the body's entire weight on one hand.

It was Barbet who proposed the "nail through the wrist" scenario because the wrist wound seen on the Shroud of Turin showed an exit in the back of the wrist. Barbet erroneously claimed that the Space of Destot is only one pathway through the carpals that would allow the nail to penetrate without breaking a bone. One slight problem... the Space of Destot would not have a nail exit the wrist where the wound on the Shroud shows it. He claimed also that the proof of his hypothesis was the lack of thumb images on the Shroud, explaining that a nail driven through the Space of Destot would strike or sever the median nerve, paralyzing the thumbs and forcing them to curl into the palms. Another small problem: the median nerve is nowhere near the Space of Destot and a nail driven there would not come close to doing what Barbet hypothesized.

Dr. Frederick T. Zugibe, M.S., M.D., Ph.D., FCAP,  FACC,  FAAFS, has proposed another method that meets both the iconographic, traditional palm placement of the nail entry wound, the exit wound shown on the Shroud of Turin, and the strength of the wrist bones needed to keep the crucified pinned to the cross.

This alternative pathway actually starts IN THE PALM and exits exactly where the wrist wound is located on the image on the Shroud of Turin. The starting place on the palm for this pathway is really easy to find: hold your palm facing your face and fold your thumb toward the center of your palm. This forms a valley . Place your finger at the base of the valley and you'll feel an indentation. Place a nail point there and drive it in angled toward the back of the wrist (about 45 degrees) and it will slide through the carpals and exit in the back of the wrist, exactly where the wound is shown on the Shroud.

This nailing position actually makes it EASIER for the nail driver to accurately nail through the tough bones of the hand and wrist. If the executioner lays the intended victim on the ground the hand falls naturally into this position if the elbow is on the ground and the back of the hand is pressed backwards onto a patibulum that is several inches thick... the angle of driving the nail is then perfectly straight, perpendicular to the wood. Expert crucifixionists would know of this and use it.

Incidentally, Dr. Zugibe, through the use of volunteer LIVING subjects, has proven that crucifiction does not kill through asphyxiation as has been long thought (again, due to the work of Pierre Barbet) but rather by hypovolemic and traumatic shock.

[Swordmaker]

Gee, I'm so surprised that the "experts" missed this verse. /sarcasm

John Dominic Crossen does NOT believe that Jesus was resurrected. He is one of the "scholars" who are picking and choosing which quotations of Jesus' are things Jesus actually said... or things somebody else said and put in his mouth.

He believes that Jesus resurrection was completely fabricated or he was resurrected only in the memories of his followers.

[mercy]

picky picky picky

[Swordmaker]

but had never heard that the Greek word included the wrist. What is the word?

In Anglicized spelling of the greek:

ceir
cheir
khire
Definition from Strongs: perhaps from the base of ceimwn - cheimon 5494 in the sense of its congener the base of casma - chasma 5490 (through the idea of hollowness for grasping); the hand (literally or figuratively (power); especially (by Hebraism) a means or instrument):--hand.

[Swordmaker]

But the body weight was carried on a projecting peg from the upright beam called a sedile. That is not mentioned in the NT but has been described by Roman writers. The foot rest was unknown, and appeared only in Christian art.

Sorry, but the sedile IS the footrest, if it could be called that. It actually was a piece of wood that made it easier to nail the feet to the cross. It was sometimes used, especially on stipes that were permanent.

[Swordmaker]

Here is a photo of the location and angle that Dr. Zugibe proposes:

There is another picture of thumb side of a cadaver's hand with a very large needle inserted through this space and it exits exactly where the wound on the Shroud shows it did. I have not posted it because it is very graphic and is not suitable for a family site.

The entire peer reviewed paper is available here e-Forensicmedicine.net

[Capt. Tom]

Sorry, but the sedile IS the footrest, if it could be called that. It actually was a piece of wood that made it easier to nail the feet to the cross. It was sometimes used, especially on stipes that were permanent.

Sorry but the footrest was called the suppedaneum. The projecting peg is still the sedile. - Tom

[Marysecretary]

EXCELLENT! Thank you for pointing that out. I hate experts. They just talk, talk, talk to hear themselves.

[Marysecretary]

EXCELLENT! Thank you for pointing that out. I hate experts. They just talk, talk, talk to hear themselves.

[cynicom]

If they were not there to witness, they can shut up.

[Marysecretary]

They all need to read Job 38 and on. It would give them an idea of how much they think they know. This is laughable.

[Rubber_Duckie_27]

That is very interesting work.

LIVING subjects? Wow.

[HoustonCurmudgeon]

...and the significance of this criticism is?

I was searching for the correct response and there in the second post I found you had already made it!