9/11 terrorists killed under 3000 people in NYC.

Every year, ABORTIONISTS, in that city alone, kill VASTLY more than that!

At almost 1.5 MILLION dead a year from 'choice' in this country,

we would have to have more than one 9/11 EVERY DAY

to equal what is happening in these 'health clinics', EVERY YEAR.

Hey, personal attacks I can handle. (Indifference, however, is much harder to endure ;))

Honestly, 'reasoned' debates over God are rarely very useful. Too many folks disagree. Words are symbols that have to undergo translations. Spiritual code books are stifling.

I know that my own 'classical liberal critical thinking skeptical' training served me very well for functional purposes, career success, and society's recognition of a job well done. It also led me to the logical rejection of how 'God' was being sold to me. I won't dull you with the resultant mundane impact on my personal situation, but it's a common enough story I'm not proud to be part of.

"certrain people (like you)..."

I can't really vouch for how others perceive God's attitude toward us. My own is deeply colored by lots of O.T. reading that began in earnest in May 2001. On the whole, the O.T. reveals to me a God that is deeply jealous toward us, for us (at first, the jews of course).

Over the last many decades, American society has dramatically become a zoloft-loving, navel gazing mess. Hardships we've always had. But, these days, the American spirit is one shot through with lies for the most part, ubiquitous lies and above all, lies about how we conduct ourselves sexually.

There is this huge school of thought being sold out there that folks who married in the 1910's are no different than the folks today. I have talked to countless baby boomers, and countless numbers of their predecessors. My parents come from the boom generation....and I don't like them much, for even now, they struggle and struggle with navel gazing nonsense. Too many of their peers are like them, and for too long, I followed their example.

The older the American I meet, the more I generally like them. I have a few very old relatives, who in their day were considered the liberals. They sound like rabid right wingers relatively. And their attitudes are much less 'survivor' in outlook - more like 'server'.

I'm rambling. Bottom line, I don't 'feel' God is angry. I discern, based on my understanding of the ot and nt, and my own 'unreasonable' relationship with Him that his desire to protect us is diminishing.

Not meaning to sound gloomy or doomy. But, the ot is pretty clear regarding God's motives in how he uses the enemies of his people to 'turn their hearts'. The nt is pretty clear about how within my own circle I'm expected to conduct myself.

In truth, abortion, here and elsewhere, has gained its ground because of an unwillingness to face God's expectations of us. Here I think I'm going to add what I really think to this topic. I think the majority of men are largely boys trapped inside adult male bodies.

I think feminism is just like abortion in this aspect. Mold that naturally grows in the absence of manly living. We men are solely to blame for the rise in abortion and feminism. For our women are not being properly loved as a man should love a woman. And that is because we men are not properly loving our God. Generally speaking of course. Here in Freeperland, I sense an enormous number of folks are getting it right. (Whew, that was a close one!!)

And so, given the grace of freewill, He allows the mold to grow, and gives us the experience of the dirt. I believe the word at play for this is 'mercy'.

So, how is that for a stab at helping you understand my perspective?

Abortions occur in Israel, but it is not very high. People just don't have enough kids.

According to Orthodox beliefs life begins after 40 days, I think.

You're grossly misprepresenting what I said on that thread. I said I objected ANY group having lots of babies for the sole purpose of achieving political or economic victory over an opposing groups. You chose to interpret that as meaning that I objected only to YOUR group engaging in that practice. The world doesn't revolve and you and your group. And now you're getting bent out of shape when I express support for the Orthodox views on abortion. You seem very eager to take offense at any opportunity, including imagined ones. Suit yourself.

well, I think not many will take issue with you on your sentiments. I certainly don't. But see my post above previous to this one for elaboration.

We need to follow the money. Who pays to set up the clinics? Who lobbies to expand the legality of abortion? In Eastern Europe and Russia it is Soros, see this month's Chronicles magazine.

Are these not in YOUR Holy Book too?

Deuteronomy 19:8-10
8. If the LORD your God enlarges your territory, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, and gives you the whole land he promised them,
9. because you carefully follow all these laws I command you today--to love the LORD your God and to walk always in his ways--then you are to set aside three more cities.
10. Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land, which the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance, and so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed.

Deuteronomy 19:13
Show him no pity. You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you.

Deuteronomy 21:9
So you will purge from yourselves the guilt of shedding innocent blood, since you have done what is right in the eyes of the LORD.

1 Kings 2:31-33
31. Then the king commanded Benaiah, "Do as he says. Strike him down and bury him, and so clear me and my father's house of the guilt of the innocent blood that Joab shed.
32. The LORD will repay him for the blood he shed, because without the knowledge of my father David he attacked two men and killed them with the sword. Both of them--Abner son of Ner, commander of Israel's army, and Amasa son of Jether, commander of Judah's army--were better men and more upright than he.
33. May the guilt of their blood rest on the head of Joab and his descendants forever. But on David and his descendants, his house and his throne, may there be the LORD's peace forever." (Dang!! Isn't something like this what has gotten Mel Gibson in trouble with some of today's Jews??) [see below]

2 Kings 21:16
Moreover, Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end--besides the sin that he had caused Judah to commit, so that they did evil in the eyes of the LORD.

2 Kings 24:3-4
3. Surely these things happened to Judah according to the LORD's command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done,
4. including the shedding of innocent blood. For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive.

Psalms 106:38
They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16. There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17. haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18. a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19. a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Isaiah 59:7
Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are evil thoughts; ruin and destruction mark their ways.

Jeremiah 7:5-7
5. If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly,
6. if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm,
7. then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever.

Jeremiah 22:3-5
3. This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.
4. For if you are careful to carry out these commands, then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this palace, riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by their officials and their people.
5. But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.'"

Jeremiah 22:17
"But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain, on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion."

Jeremiah 26:15
Be assured, however, that if you put me to death, you will bring the guilt of innocent blood on yourselves and on this city and on those who live in it, for in truth the LORD has sent me to you to speak all these words in your hearing."

Matthew 27:22-25
22. "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked. They all answered, "Crucify him!"
23. "Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"
24. When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"
25. All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

(Likewise, "What will YOU do with Jesus?")

Abortions occur in Israel, but it is not very high. People just don't have enough kids. According to Orthodox beliefs life begins after 40 days, I think.

It becomes a potential life then, albeit one with some rights, not a living person until the shoulders emerge. I believe the Catholic Church used 40 days rather than conception as the point at which life began until the late 19th century as well.

Before this turns into - "Blame the Jews!" - read on...

Who killed Jesus?

(Here's yer answer...........)

John 10:17-19
17. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again.
18. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
19. At these words the Jews were again divided.

(What's new?)

If you follow FR much, you'll find lots that act like they know what God's favor is. In reality, though, you are correct, no one knows.

I do follow FR, ever day. It seems logical to me that someone who approaches strict religion/spiirtuality would also come to know that G-d is unfathomable. Ironically, that is not the case alot of the time.

Personally, I don't think God and our earthly logic are compatible...and when you throw in FRs, then you really have something incompatible.

Don't forget honor killings and public stoning of women.

How many Catholic congressmen and senators actually vote for abortion? Wasn't slick willy Baptist?

I wonder what you think feminism is that you equate it to abortion. When feminism is interpreted correctly, that is, equality between the sexes, then it is not a mold at all but a right. I certainly don't believe women should have special privileges from affirmative action but I also want to remind you that we don't live in an Islamic society where they are something less. Abortion is wrong, equality is not. The two are NOT the same.

Islam permits abortion in the first few months for medical reasons but it rarely happens as children are so desired ...

This is the crux of the matter and why creating a Culture which values children is so important. We will never see an end to abortion until our entire culture values children and sees every child as a net asset, not a liability. Creating the "culture of life" involves everyone.

This is unfathomable. Jews cringe every time a Jew marries a Christian or converts, because of each Jew lessens the strength of the Jewish people.

And here they are practicing abortion.

Isn't France now in danger of being outnumbered, so to speak, by their new found friends, Muslim immigrants?

Islam permits abortion in the first few months for medical reasons but it rarely happens as children are so desired ...

Now talk about irony, when the children "so desired" are gladly sent to become shahidim - to blow themselves up and kill innocent Israelis (Jews and Arabs alike, since the bombs do not differentiate)

"Creating the "culture of life" involves everyone."

Bump.