Race only skin deep - S.J. STUDENTS DISCOVER GENETIC LINK

Mercury News ^ | Mon, Feb. 09, 2004 | Katherine Corcoran

[CobaltBlue]

More than half of the class at San Jose's Piedmont Hills High School, students from numerous racial and ethnic backgrounds, are linked in their DNA to the same ancestor, born more than 100,000 years ago in central China or Taiwan.

[Thumper1960]

How about.................

Their ancestor Cain slew my ancestor Abel....*I* want thousands of years interest on my reparations.

[puroresu]

Basically, I'm saying that race is a real phenomenon which does exist. It's not a myth or a sociological fabrication, anymore than are Persian cats and French Poodles.

Two populations in isolation from one another will diverge, eventually to the point that they possess many different characteristics from one another. Those characteristics are genetically passed on to offspring, so a Scottish couple isn't going to produce a Korean baby. A race is a subgroup within a larger species which, due to geographic isolation or deliberate breeding tactics, possesses and passes on certain traits to offspring which differentiate them from offspring of other races.

Thus, mating two pedigreed Siamese cats will always produce Siamese kittens, not Persian kittens. And I don't think that any amount of environment or nurture would enable two pedigreed German Shepherds to produce a Collie pup.

So there is a reality to race. It isn't a matter of there being Caucasian genes or Asian genes. There aren't Pomeranian genes, either, but Pomeranians exist in the dog world and are identifiable and trackable by DNA because the DNA they possess differs from other breeds.

I'm just pointing out something that common sense would have told everyone before Political Correctness came along. We're all more related to our racial compatriots than to members of races isolated from us.

Using mitochondrial DNA, which is irrelevant to race, to "prove" that race doesn't exist, as has been done on PBS and in many school systems (I'm sure that's the case in the article which started this thread), is dishonest and an abuse of science.

[briant]

Interestingly, I think a conversation like this would have a different flavor if we were talking about Darwin's finches.

[Dan Evans]

Oh, dear, this is turning into one of "those" discussions. Well, since I started the thread, I'll bite. What is the source for your allegation that "they" have IQs of 70? And who are "they" while you're at it?

We were talking about sub-Saharan Africans. Why is that such an extraordinary claim that you would ask for proof? The "Bell Curve" documents it well. Here is an article from Insight magazine

http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=210980

Like I was saying before, small genetic differences can make a huge difference.

[puroresu]

You may be right!

[cyborg]

Yeah ummm... you keep believing that. What's your IQ by the way?

[CobaltBlue]

It's been a very long time since I read "The Bell Curve" but as I recall, it's rather a controversial piece of work.

I completely reject the concept of going out into non-Western places in the world, and testing people according to how well they understand Western concepts. I am a lawyer, will blow you out of the water when it comes to legal concepts. My husband, the chemical engineer, will blow us both out of the water when it comes to concepts involving chemical engineering. And my older son, the computer engineering student, understands C++ better than all of us.

Race has nothing to do with this.

[kcar]

Shocking! To think that male humans, like most of their best friend male dogs, would have an ethnically disloyal, pragmatic "You bend them, we'll blend them" attitude when it somes to relations with other "races". Shocking to think we evolved (or were selectively created, have your fantasy) from the same stock.

But we're so different from them?!

[Dan Evans]

Historically, for the average human it was next to impossible to find someone outside of your "race" to mate with. Up until this century, maybe 98% of people in the world could live their lives without actually seeing a member of a different "race." That's what's known as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

More precisely, natural human behavior causes races to separate and the separation maintains races. In most places in present-day America, there are people who go all day without seeing a member of another race. Whites have left the cities for the suburbs deliberately to separate themselves from blacks.

[cyborg]

You'd appreciate Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould. I'm picking that book up tomorrow. It was written ten years before Bell Curve and the newest edition critiques BC. Of course no one wants to admit that IQ test started out being used to help austic kids then it was taken over by eugenics scientists to build 'the master race'.

[Modernman]

All you have really said is that humans, like various dogs cats etc., can interbreed. This has nothing to do with the existance of race per se.

That's because, as has been pointed out on this thread, there doesn't seem to be any objective way to define race.

[puroresu]

Read Stephen Jay Gould's with caution. His "science" was heavily influenced by his commitment to Marxism/socialism:

http://solidarity.igc.org/atc/99Fayyazuddin.html

[Dan Evans]

I am a lawyer, will blow you out of the water when it comes to legal concepts.

Ignorance of these facts about race has enriched lawyers. I once heard a trial lawyer say that it is not his job to arrive at the truth, he is only interested in winning the case. Do you subscribe to that philosophy?

I am interested in the truth.

[CobaltBlue]

In most places in present-day America, there are people who go all day without seeing a member of another race.

Even if you meant North Dakota, Wyoming and Kansas, I doubt very much that many white people would go all day without seeing Native Americans unless they are wilfully blind.

But of course, the way you have your argument set up, it doesn't matter how rare this is, you only argue that it's possible in "most places" regardless of how deserted they are.

Too bad. In a democracy, "places" don't vote. People vote.

And, in this country, we can't avoid the obligation to get along with people of other races.

[puroresu]

Sorry, that should say: Read Stephen Jay Gould's works with caution. His "science" was heavily influenced by his commitment to Marxism/socialism:

http://solidarity.igc.org/atc/99Fayyazuddin.html

[briant]

You may want to read some of Darwin's words and you may have the same idea about species. In fact you can same the same thing of many categories, but we still use them to organize the world.

[cyborg]

Yes I agree. I've read Bell Curve and I want to read this for balance. Personally I don't believe all this IQ race hooey BUT I'll read anything once.

[Modernman]

Whites have left the cities for the suburbs deliberately to separate themselves from blacks.

That's a very recent phenomenon in many American cities. Sure, there were black neighborhoods, Puerto Rican neighborhoods, what have you. However, the nature of urban life made it impossible for people to segregate themselves if they wanted to live in an urban environment. Detroit, for example, was a multi-racial city until the 70's. However, liberal taxation and governance policies in the 60's-70's served to drive anyone with money (including the new, growing black middle-class) out of the failing cities.

To say white people left the cities to separate themselves from black people is incorrect- they left the cities to escape failing liberal governments that were running the cities into the ground.

[CobaltBlue]

I am interested in the truth.

Ah, *cough* *cough*. Er, no, my dear, you are interested in winning your argument.

Does ignorance enrich lawyers? Jeez, Louise, I hope so. Why on earth should it impoverish us?

Let's assume best case, let's assume equality. Let's assume you rise or fall, stand or fall, on your own ability, and so do I.

You're the one arguing that the "niggas" have an average IQ of 70. You need that to win; I don't.

Where's the proof?

[Modernman]

More precisely, natural human behavior causes races to separate and the separation maintains races.

Again, your argument is circular. Just because people have historically lived separated by race does not mean this is "natural" behavior. It just means that, historically, few people have had a chance to interact with other races.

Race is a mindset we have, but not all civilizations have historically thought on those terms. The Romans, for example, thought in terms of Citizens and non-citizens, whichhad nothing to do with race. Some of the Roman emperors who were from North Africa would probably qualify as "black" in our society today, but that was irrelevant to the Romans since they were Citizens. Meanwhile, white, Nordic people were considered barbarians, not fit for Citizenship.