MEL ON THE DEFENSIVE

NY Post ^ | January 30, 2004 | Liz Smith

[presidio9]

'YOU'RE GOING to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" Peggy Noonan asks of Mel Gibson in the Reader's Digest for March. Gibson: "I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."

[Texas2step]

As I've noted before, Hutton is a public figure in his own right, he's written two books, a newsletter, and speaks publicly. Personally, I think the NYT quotes are enough to identify him as a revisionist

And, in light of this being about the only online publication with his remarks, I'm willing to stipulate for the sake of this discussion that you are probably correct.

I'm not sure it makes sense to load the thread with comments from Hutton and his supporters.

Thank you for a voice of sanity. Let's look at Mel's record. His father's record is not germaine to this discussion. Maybe if Mel were making a movie about the Holocaust it would be, but, he's not.

[exmarine]

No, it was not a straight answer.

You know what, no one cares what you think about Mel Gibson. I'm sure there are people who don't like you. Life isn't a popularity contest. Your opinion won't stop this movie and it won't stop the EARTH SHAKING effect this movie is going to have on this dying country.

I suggest you go watch the movie and stop questioning the beliefs and motives of people you know nothing about.

[af_vet_1981]

You know what, no one cares what you think about Mel Gibson. I'm sure there are people who don't like you. Life isn't a popularity contest. Your opinion won't stop this movie and it won't stop the EARTH SHAKING effect this movie is going to have on this dying country.

I suppose your opinion about Mel Gibson and the movie are not relevant either then.

I suggest you go watch the movie and stop questioning the beliefs and motives of people you know nothing about.

I suggest you start examining the beliefs and motives of people whom you choose to defend.

[Texas2step]

"It is a story about "the Jews" told from his perspective."

And I conceded as much, but it's not a story about "The Jewish People", although they are part of the story. It's a story about Jesus the Christ.

I've stipulated, for the purpose of this discussion only, in two separate comments that his father's claims are at a minimum revistionist, and I would not argue, based on what is know and thought to be true, if you wanted to classify him it as "denial". Either way, it's not germaine.

He apparently won't do that for fear of upsetting his father.

And we shouldn't ask him to. He's been called to honor his father, and I can completely understand him not wanting to address his fathers views. Again, it's not germaine.

No, it was not a straight answer.

We'll just have to disagree on that point. To me, the answer was clear. But then, I'm not a Jew.

He has said his father never lied to him. What are we supposed to draw from that answer ?

And my father is a racist. Yet, I don't think he's ever deliberately lied to me, either. That doesn't mean he hasn't expressed views, or opinions, of which I could not agree. There's a distinct difference. You want to make that statement mean "I believe everything my father ever said" (SO9's wording, I believe), which is not the same as my father never lied to me.

I would like to know how many Jews Mel thinks were killed in the Holocaust.

And SO9 wants a one word answer, and claudius wants an exact phrase of several words, and abe foxman wants him to change his movie to something that doesn't agree with the Gospels, and on, and on, and on. No way he can make everyone happy. Period.

I still contend that every statement he made was the truth, and nobody has, or can, dispute that.

And, I still don't understand why it matters at all if he has made a movie about the Christian faith, about the last hours of Jesus life as a human being, based on the Gospel and Christian texts.

He's not making a Holocaust movie. That's been done by a Jew, and others. Until you see something concrete in the way of anti-semitism, you are simply placing yourself in alignment with abe foxman, who has defamed an honorable man.

[exmarine]

I suggest you start examining the beliefs and motives of people whom you choose to defend.

It's not my job to question people's beliefs and motives - and it's not yours either. ONLY GOD CAN SEE A MOTIVE - you can't, so stop pretending you can. You are bordering on slander.

[af_vet_1981]

And SO9 wants a one word answer, and claudius wants an exact phrase of several words, and abe foxman wants him to change his movie to something that doesn't agree with the Gospels, and on, and on, and on. No way he can make everyone happy. Period.

He can make me happy if he gives the correct answer.

[exmarine]

I suppose your opinion about Mel Gibson and the movie are not relevant either then.

That's right - the movie out out. Period. It's out and there's nothing I can do about it, nothing the ADL can do about it, there's nothing you can do about it. So, this discussion about Mel Gibson's motives is IRRELEVANT. I have yet to see ONE IOTA of evidence that Mel Gibson is an anti-semite. Either provide evidence to this effect or stop your nonsense.

I'm not the one engaging is borderline slander, or even outright slander, as some have on this thread.

[af_vet_1981]

It's not my job to question people's beliefs and motives - and it's not yours either.

Sure it is. You do it everyday as you formulate your opinions. This thread happens to be a news story about Mel Gibson and the controversy over the movie. He gave an interview.

ONLY GOD CAN SEE A MOTIVE - you can't, so stop pretending you can. You are bordering on slander.

You are incorrect and starting to get personal. If you can't discuss the thread perhaps we should just stop communication now. Thank you.

[exmarine]

Again, give me ONE IOTA of evidence (from what he did say not from what he didn't say) that he is in any way anti-semitic....that is, without reading into what he is saying and just reading the black and white words on the page.

I will force you to provide evidence for your suspicions, and I will keep asking for it until you provide it. In so doing, you will be exposed for your BIAS.

[Texas2step]

He can make me happy if he gives the correct answer.

Now, which correct answer was that again? SO9's, claudius', veronica's, abe foxman's, yours? Whatever answer he gives, some will be unhappy. It's known as lose/lose.

And, just in case I haven't mentioned it before, it's not germaine. :-)

[af_vet_1981]

Now, which correct answer was that again?

I would accept an answer from Mel of greater than 5 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust. I would be satisfied. The truth is not an unreasonable standard.

[AgThorn]

You can bet the house on that. The NY Post has it out for Mel and this movie. The pretense of objectivity is becoming more and more obvious.

The NY Post? really? I would think that since this is the "conservative" rag in town, that they would be supportive ... must be that national enquiror image that the paper has ... want's to be the "shock jock" of papers, while still being of the "fair and balance" pool. Kinda serves cross purposes at times, perhaps this being one of them.

[SJackson]

Be patient. Mel and his dad are both public figures. Dad's now in demand as a speaker (as some, well nasty places). It's a legitimate question, it will be asked again, and eventually we'll have an answer.

[Nix 2]

T2step,
Don't really care so much about your particular politics, but abe foxmann doesn't speak for me or many other Jews either.
Secondly, it was Jews from the Department of Antiquities in Israel who taught the cast and crew Aramaic, showed them the manner of authentic historic dress for the time this was supposed to have happened, taught Mel Gibson about the exact politics of the time, and most of the people who are deriding this film don't have the slightest clue about it, including the Catholic Church which is frightened of it.
Mel Gibson ASKED the Vatican for help and had the door slammed in his face. The Jews helped him.

Presidio9, you are all too right about the areas of the Holocaust that many people don't scream loudly enough about. There WAS a definite holocaust of mentally deficient children, cripples, elderly people, attempted genocide of the Gypsies, progroms against Protestants, homosexuals, one Catholic Denomination at the behest of the Vatican which did not want to share power, and were turned on themselves afterward, but that did not stop them from allowing the Vatican Bank to be used by the Nazis to launder money, or to be used as an underground railroad to smuggle Nazis out of Europe to South America. Many, many gray areas.
But as far as I know, we are the only ones who lost so many because they sought for us back ten generations. Many of the slaughtered Christians were murdered for having Jews somewhere in their backgrounds. Crosses were destroyed throughout the Fatherland, even those in cemetaries, and replaced by swastikas.
Life is never so simple, and the truth of how many actually died might never be known for sure. If we base our own destruction against the destruction of the Gypsies, it would be like the comparisons that were made early on between the Israelis being murdered by terrorists and Americans murdered on 911...based on the numbers and area, not on religion. There were far fewer Gypsies, so their genocide was so destructive that they never came back.
Out of all who were murdered so brutally, we are the only ones who have stood for one and all and shouted NEVER AGAIN!
We remember because no one else has ever come so to the forefront to witness for the victims of this horror.
I have often wondered why this is true. Why is the Pope going to beatify the man who made all of it possible by his conspiracy and silence? Who stands for the Catholics? Protestants? Gypsies? elderly and feeble; the retarded and crippled? WE DO! That is what the Holocaust Museum and the Memorial Tribute to Righteous Gentiles is all about.
For myself, and I make this clear, I am ONLY speaking for myself, whoever hates Jews already will find in this film exactly what they want to see. Those who realize that a Christ sacrificed HIMSELF, know it would not have mattered who was around at the time. It was supposed to have been for all mankind.
Third, this Being was a Jew and was portrayed as a RELIGIOUS Jew. Most of us have always had a hard time, as is still being seen by the progrom the Israeli government is intent on bringing against religious Jews as I type this.
Politics does not have a place in the realm of G-d, and if ANYTHING, this movie portrays that most graphically. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I would no more call all Catholics pedophiles because the Vatican has turned a blind eye to it, than I would call abe foxmann a Jew. He ain't. He is a leftist hater.
Neither were the High Priests back in the days of this epic religious as they were seeking to maintain an ironfisted rule over the captive populace.
This NT Armageddon started off with one message and ended with quite another. The Jesus at the beginning was a rebel. He rebelled against the power structure in Israel and the power structure in Rome.
It was used many years later to establish a cult based on a false interpretation of the early NT and John the Baptist, to the advent of Paul who so subtley changed the words and deeds of the Christ HE preached as to render His religion , and therefore everything he was supposed to have stood for, an abnormality. They built a pagan church on the Blood of their *Saviour*, and it has become more pagan throughout the centuries.
The catholic Guild is buying up tickets to this movie and reselling them hand over fist by using blatantly anti-Jewish marketing, many thanks to those who falsely call themselves our leaders. They are asking Catholics to buy these tickets because the *Jews* are trying to stop them from seeing this movie.
Every side has its thorns, and this is no different coming from the Catholic Guild than it is coming from the ADL. BOTH can kiss mine, because I will be first in line to see it, and probably one of the rare few who would have understood it without babyfied subtitles.
No one who is secure in their faith should be afraid of this movie. Hell, half the world is trying to kill us anyway. This movie might even change some hearts...but that is an outside bet.

[Texas2step]

Don't really care so much about your particular politics

Not sure how much of my politics you know about, nor what you don't care about them.

That being said, I certainly appreciate your comments in this post and agree with most everything you have written.

Thanks for taking the time to write this. Well written and containing many of the same points that I was so ineffectually trying to make. I'm not a Jew, so they don't carry the same weight in certain circles, it would seem.

Thanks again for your stand and courage.

[Nix 2]

Thank you, but believe me, it is NOT courage. It's faith in G-d and in the truth. I am very secure about who and what I am. No movie, especially a historic movie that my own people were the main consultants on, is going to make me afraid of those without faith. That goes on already.
I figure if this movie stops an abortion, a murder, stops some from having unfounded hatred of anyone different from themselves, or self-hatred, so much to the good.
As I said, those who already hate me will continue to do so with or without this movie.

[Inyokern]

Me: According to the Gospel of John, the Jews are not merely no longer His children, they are the children of the devil.

You: Read the test again. It refers to the specific group of people He was addressing.

He was addressing the Pharisees, who are basically the only Jewish faction still in existence. So he was addressing the Jews. I repeat, Christianity teaches that the Jews are children of the devil. There is no way around that.

I don't know how you can claim that this is not a message of hate. Are you going to say that Jesus called the Jews children of the devil but he meant it in a nice way???

By the way, my father was a naval officer who worked on the space program for the United States. My father was not the devil, despite what you have been taught in church.

[Aquinasfan]

The NY Post? really?

Yes. I don't know what the motivation is, but it's there. Most anti-Mel articles posted here in the last year have come from the Post.

[Texas2step]

My father was not the devil, despite what you have been taught in church.

You continue to spew ignorance and venom. You must be stupid. You still cannot show me one statement of hate by a Christian on this board. Not one comment that a Christian is saying that "the Jews" murdered Jesus. Not one comment by a Christian that we hate Jews. Not one comment that we hate Pharisees.

You take a single verse, out of context, with no idea what you're talking about to try to make a statement of fact against the Christians, and you're absolutely wrong.

Get this. I'm a Christian. I have been in the Christian church since I was 9 years old. I have heard hundreds of Christian preachers preach. I have heard hundreds of Christian teachers teach. Not once, not a single time, have I been taught to hate the Pharisees or hate the Jews.

These are lies. You are lying. You are clueless. And, I'm surmising that you must be stupid, too. Either you are stupid, or you are chosing to slander me, and my faith.

Inyokern, run along and play, adults are having a discussion right now. Maybe I'll come outside and play with you later.

[presidio9]

I don't know how you can claim that this is not a message of hate. Are you going to say that Jesus called the Jews children of the devil but he meant it in a nice way???

The only hate Christ was capable of feel was for sin. When the Parisees planned to kill him for speaking the Truth, Christ offered the analogy of a family and the status of fathers, sons, and slaves. The Parisees were no longer doing the Father's work. They ceased to behave as sons of Abraham because they were under the influence of Satan.

Your assertion is ridiculous. Christ can only feel hatred for the Jews if God does. If God hated the Jews would he have sent his only Son to live among them?

By the way, my father was a naval officer who worked on the space program for the United States. My father was not the devil, despite what you have been taught in church.

Again, nobody hates you, and your message of hatred is the exact opposite of what we have been taught in Church. But the justification you offered struck me as an example of how faulty your logic is, and the laziness of your thought process. Your father's participation in the US Space program "proves" what a good guy he was, huh? Were you aware that there were former Nazis among the founders of NASA?