Posted on 01/30/2004 9:10:59 AM PST by presidio9
Edited on 05/26/2004 5:19:21 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
'YOU'RE GOING to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" Peggy Noonan asks of Mel Gibson in the Reader's Digest for March. Gibson: "I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...
Whatever you do, do not mention this to the Romany people. They would be most suprised to hear it!
A tiny minority, some of whom had a boot to the neck. And some of whom tried to save other Jews by doing so. Live or die, that was the choice they faced. And again, this represents very few.
Not exactly a big "gray area" either.
Your relativities are showing again, but I'll take that as an admission that your original statement about there being no "gray areas" concerning the Holocaust was, in fact, false.
You really are a silly confused person. Here is exactly what you said (God forbid I should put words in your mouth):
"There is no gray area regarding the facts of the Holocaust."
Later you talked about the degree of gray area. You can't have it both ways. Either there are some gray areas surrounding the details of the Holocaust, or there are not. Again, this is not subject to debate. You laid claim to an ignorant absolutism. Deal with it. Life goes on.
You wrote " There's absolutely no reason for Mel to even address this question. It's completely asinine! "
Peggy Noonan asked Mel Gibson the question because his father's comments about the Holocaust are in the public realm and he has only supported his father's comments publicly albeit without categorizing them other than generally. Peggy did not ask an asinine question. She asked the question so he could put the issue to rest. She gave him a clear chance to distance himself from the question of Holocaust denial. He left ambiguity because he listed the numbers for non Jews who were killed in World War II and declined to list the numbers of Jews killed. It reminded me of Clinton's non-denial denials. I would like to see a straight answer from Mel Gibson on how many Jews he thinks were murdered in the Holocaust.
Do you have a link to his comments ?
It is a denial because he did not distance himself from his father's view of the Holocaust. He had the perfect opportunity but chose not to take it. He had numbers for the Ukrainian (Catholics I assume). He had numbers for the total casualties of World War II. I can't accept that he does not attribute numbers to the Jews murdered in the Holocaust. There is really no excuse.
There were Catholic martyrs who gave their lives, and others who simply risked their lives, to save Jews in the Holocaust. They are righteous men and women.
---------------------
Excerpts from March 9, 2003, Sunday NYT Magazine
Is the Pope Catholic . . . Enough?
Mel Gibson is also known in traditionalist circles as the most famous son of Hutton Gibson, a well-known author and activist who has railed against the Vatican for more than 30 years. His books on the topic include ''Is the Pope Catholic?'' and ''The Enemy Is Here.'' (Precisely where is indicated by a map on the dust jacket -- it's a cartoon of Italy, drawn by one of his 49 grandchildren). Gibson père also publishes a quarterly newsletter called ''The War Is Now!,'' which includes all manner of verbal volleys against a pope he calls ''Garrulous Karolus, the Koran Kisser.''
………….
Which made it all the odder when he launched into one of his complex conspiracy theories. On our first night together, he nursed a mug of sassafras tea while leading a four-hour tutorial on so-called sedevacantism, which holds that all the popes going back to John XXIII in the 1950's have been illegitimate -- ''anti-popes,'' he called them. As Hutton explained it, the conservative cardinal Giuseppe Siri was probably passed over for pope in 1958 in favor of a more reform-minded candidate. Hutton said Cardinal Siri was duly elected, but was forced to step aside by conspirators inside and outside the church. These shadowy enemies might have threatened ''to atom-bomb the Vatican City,'' he said. In another conversation, he told me that the Second Vatican Council was ''a Masonic plot backed by the Jews.''
The intrigue got only murkier and more menacing from there. The next day after church, over a plate of roast beef at a buffet joint off the highway, conversation turned to the events of Sept. 11. Hutton flatly rejected that Al Qaeda hijackers had anything to do with the attacks. ''Anybody can put out a passenger list,'' he said.
So what happened? ''They were crashed by remote control,'' he replied.
He moved on to the Holocaust, dismissing historical accounts that six million Jews were exterminated. ''Go and ask an undertaker or the guy who operates the crematorium what it takes to get rid of a dead body,'' he said. ''It takes one liter of petrol and 20 minutes. Now, six million?''
Across the table, Joye suddenly looked up from her plate. She was dressed in a stylish outfit for church, wearing a leather patchwork blazer and a felt beret in place of the traditional headdress. She had kept quiet most of the day, so it was a surprise when she cheerfully piped in. ''There weren't even that many Jews in all of Europe,'' she said.
''Anyway, there were more after the war than before,'' Hutton added.
The entire catastrophe was manufactured, said Hutton, as part of an arrangement between Hitler and ''financiers'' to move Jews out of Germany. Hitler ''had this deal where he was supposed to make it rough on them so they would all get out and migrate to Israel because they needed people there to fight the Arabs,'' he said.
Whether any of this has rubbed off on Hutton's son Mel is an open question. A church elder at Holy Family says that while the two share the same foundation of faith, Mel Gibson parts company with his father on many points. ''He doesn't go along with a lot of what his dad says,'' he says. And beyond claiming to have seen the plans for Holy Family and attended services with the congregation, Hutton Gibson has no apparent connection to his son's church in California.
Still, Mel Gibson has shown some of his father's flair for conspiracy scenarios. In a 1995 Playboy interview, he related a sketchy theory that various presidential assassinations and assassination attempts have been acts of retribution for economic reforms that challenged the powers-that-be. ''There's something to do with the Federal Reserve that Lincoln did, Kennedy did and Reagan tried,'' he said. ''I can't remember what it was. My dad told me about it. Everyone who did this particular thing that would have fixed the economy got undone. Anyway, I'll end up dead if I keep talking.''
Yes, there were notable exceptions, but the majority of so-called Christian churches in Germany went along. That is just a fact. And the state of the church in America today is similar to that of Germany in 1933 in some respects. For example, almost all of the liberal mainline churches (Methodist, Presb. Church USA, Eposcopal, Lutheran, National Council of Churches, etc.) are pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality, pro-gay marriage, pro-gay clergy, do not believe the bible is the Word of God; and the catholic church heirarchy protected and abetted child molestors. In other words, the church in America today is CORRUPT to a great extent as much as the Germany churches were - they is co-sigining the culture's descent into total depravity. Might as well post an "ICHABOD" sign above the doors of many churches today.
The whole article is over here if anyone is concerned about the excerpting.
Is the Pope Catholic...Enough? as well at the NYT website.
As I've noted before, Hutton is a public figure in his own right, he's written two books, a newsletter, and speaks publicly. Personally, I think the NYT quotes are enough to identify him as a revisionist, and since you properly note his views aren't necessarily his son's, I'm not sure it makes sense to load the thread with comments from Hutton and his supporters.
It is a story about "the Jews" told from his perspective.
He has never, ever made a statement that can be attributed as "denial" or "revisionist". He has a father who has made some wild claims and has a wacky stream.
Would you characterize his father's claims as "denial" or "revisionist" ?
He was asked a question by Peggy Noonan and he answered it. In fact, we probably don't even have the whole of his answer as all we have read is an article by a 3rd person who quotes portions of the interview.
That is true. He may have said in the interview. I doubt it but I would be happy if he gave a number in the interview. I wouldn't understand why the number would be suppressed though.
His faith (and Jewish faith as well) calls for him to honor his father. You evidently want him to trash his father,
No. I want to hear him distance himself from what his father is reported to have said about the Jews. He apparently won't do that for fear of upsetting his father.
Yes, of course is a straight answer to a straight question. Why you cannot accept that shows that no answer he gives would be acceptable.
No, it was not a straight answer. He gave numbers for the Ukrainians who were killed but not the Jews. His father is reported to have said there were not that many Jews in Europe and it was a conspiracy to get Jews into the Middle East. He has said his father never lied to him. What are we supposed to draw from that answer ?
You mentioned that his answer reminded you of Bill Clinton. I fail to see the connection. Bill Clinton flat out lied to us. Period. It's indisputable. What part of Mel's answer is untrue? None of it.
Clinton argued a technical point of the meaning of the word "is" so as to not give all the information. I would like to know how many Jews Mel thinks were killed in the Holocaust. He knows Math. He proved that with the Ukrainians and the total number for World War Two. What he is doing makes no sense whatsoever.
Baloney. If what you say is tue, then the 4 gospels are stories about the jews. It is quite clear that the movie is ABOUT JESUS CHRIST. Jews are incidental to the story as much as you and I are. WE ALL PUT JESUS ON THAT CROSS WITH OUR SINS- and we had better repent and put our faith in Him IF WE WANT TO BE SAVED. - That is the focus of the movie.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.