If not Bush, then who?

12-28-2003 | agitate

[Agitate]

I've noticed several threads where people say they will not vote for Bush if he supports certain causes. Some include:

Memogate:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1045476/posts

Broad Amnesty in immigration:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1046165/posts

(Please don't see this as an attack on those threads or any comments in them, it's not.)

While I agree with the conservative position on both of these threads, I don't understand how a person could not vote for Bush even if he does some things that are inexplicable from a conservative point of view.

My belief is nothing could be worse than a democrat in office in 2004. I know that is the lesser of two evils vote, but it is true.

Even if Bush gave amnesty to immigrants to pander to hispanics, which would be disgusting, is that reason enough to allow a democrat a greater chance to get in office? Wouldn't the dems likely do worse?

[FairOpinion]

I posted several logical posts to you, addressing the issues, your temper tentrum responses were what convinced me that you are a lost cause, and I wrote you off.

[Badray]

"You sound terribly depressed and so damaged."

LOL I'm not at all depressed or damaged. I am a realist and I can tell man's character, not by listening to a man's words but by observing what he does. Bush is not a conservative. He endorses the same solutions that a Democrat does. He has no respect for the Constitution. Am I angry that he failed to live up the the letter or spirit of his rhetoric? Absolutely, but I am no longer fooled by it as you seem to be.

"You seem to have this idea that a tactical move to obliterate the opposition is a mortal sin, So be it."

Thanks for the laughs. All of his spending and his trashing of the Constitution is just 'strategery'. Are you in the market for any bridges in Brooklyn or property in Central Florida? You must be an easy mark for scam artists.

"Frankly, if you're truly sincere in your hurt and rage, end it all."

As patton said, you don't become a hero by dying for your country. You make some enemy bastard die for his. Suicide may be your way out. It's not mine. I intend to make the bastards pay with their lives. Politically speaking of course, lest you get any ideas that this is a threat to your political god.

"You and all of you perfect world types must disappoint easily,sad, really.."

That happens when you have high standards and expectations of the same from self professed 'Christians' and 'conservatives'. It's also something that you'd know nothing about.

"As far a snide remark to you or any of the rest of you principled, death before victory types, too bad. You frankly are the same kind of individual who feel for Perot's siren song twice, Congratulations, you've marginalized yourself , your "beliefs" and everything you claim you stand for, I won't hold my breath for you to admit YOU are the one who fails to realize that the world ,political or otherwise, does not always work as we'd so desire."

More laughs. If I am properly reading through your mispellings, I didn't fall for Perot. I warned against him. Instead, I dutifully supported the weak kneed, spineless GOP candidates who were the lesser of the two major evils. I believed that when we had a majority in Congress that we could hold off the socialist onslaught. I believed that when we had a majority in Congress AND a conservative Christian president, that we could beat back the years of excessive government encroachment into our lives. I bought the story. I fought to get both a GOP Congress and a GOP president. What I got in return was a slap in the face. I have a damaged 1st Amendment, a larger bureaucracy, and a threatened 2nd Amendment just to name a few. And you want me to bend over and take more of the same. NO THANKS! If you are too stupid or too blind to see the damage that has been done, you are the hopeless one but you just don't know it. You can call it strategy if you want. I call it a betrayal of his oath to the Constitution.

"No, you appear to me as the type of individual whop took your softball home when you did not get to pitch or be the lead batter."

You are on a roll tonight. Perhaps you should check with your local comedy club to see if they have an amateur's night. When someone or something knocks me down, I get right back up. You can get in my way, but you cannot stop me. And BTW, I wasn't the lead batter. I batted clean up and I did pitch as well as play first base.

"As stated, you want to discuss principle, then we can , you want to moan and call it principle, sorry, I have a life to live."

I am not moaning. I am stating fact and principle. You are just to enthralled with your demi-god to recognize it.

[Badray]

I believe that I asked you NOT to address me.

If I haven't, I am asking you now.

If I have asked you before, I am now insisting that you do not address me again.

I want nothing to do with you.

[gatorbait]

am not moaning. I am stating fact and principle. You are just to enthralled with your demi-god to recognize it.

Let it go;you're a doom and gloomer,not a realist, and frankly ,your arguments are unconvincing. Your notional savior is nowhere to be found and that is fact. Barry Goldwater in 1964 was far different than the Goldwater at the end.Buchannan is a marginalized joke , really and that was self inflicted. Your assertions that I see Bush as a demi god are fatuous at best and unimaginative at least .Let's drop this ,it's getting dull and frankly , we shall simply continue to disagree on this point.

[Badray]

I am not a doom and gloomer. It is I that believes that there is a brighter morning in store for America. It is you who are fatalistic in accepting Bush as the best that we can do. It is you that is afraid that America can't survive if Bush doesn't win again despite his betray of his oath.

But you are right about one thing. Arguing with those who will not see is fruitless. Good bye.

[Penner]

You never know with CA. Republican Presidential candidates have actually won CA in 6 of the last 9 elections.

But in the last 3 they've not only lost, they've been annihilated. The upcoming election will be no different.

[gatorbait]

But you are right about one thing. Arguing with those who will not see is fruitless. Good bye. And good riddance. Enjoy your disaster fantasy.

[onyx]

Hey, very GOOD posts. Excellent comments.

Badray is dead wrong. Unless Bush is re-elected, America will have a SCOTUS appointed by a democrat president and they will guarantee this country's doom.

nopardons is correct: the UNAPPEASEABLE'S see NO glass at all, nevermind the 1/2 full, 1/2 empty thang.

Fair Opinion sums it up: "The "principled" anti-Bush agitators are either the Dems useful idiots, or they are not idiots, they are working for the Dems knowingly, using conservative sounding pronouncements, as Trojan horses, because their true purpose is defeating Bush and the Republicans."

[Action-America]

If you have the links to the actual act, I'd like to see them.

I'll have to get back to you on that some time on Tuesday. My business is international and it has kept me on the phone all night. As a result, I am about to crash and burn. As it is, I have my eyelids propped open with toothpicks. In fact, on the way back to my desk from the kitchen a while ago, I tripped and one of the toothpicks broke and my eyelid slammed shut. It made a terrible noise and got splinters in my eye. I was having a tough time. OK. It isn't really that bad. But, I am crashing fast and your question deserves more attention than I can give it now. Later.

[nopardons]

You haven't asked before, you have NO right or privilege to ask that of me now, and until you own and run this site, since I have not broken any posting rules, am not stalking you, nor committing anything other than simply posting to you, you can forget it. Just because you are thoroughly incapable of refuting my posts and don't like what I say, you can't just stomp your feet and order me to leave you alone. FR doesn't work that way.

Since you are unable to " sell " others on your way of thinking, it would behoove you, to NOT claim that you could sell the Brooklyn Bridge and/or Florida swampland to anyone; least of all,to someone your intellectual better.

What you want, is an impossibility. You're demanding that President Bush roll back 80+ years of government/presidential doings, in his first term, or you refuse to support him. We didn't get to this point overnight and no matter WHAT, you delusionally imagine,he couldn't have done it.

The Senate is NOT composed of 60+ die-heart, GOP faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar right constitutionalists.The GOP has the most minuscule of majorities and many actual RINOS.

The populace, at large, is NOT yearning and imploring, on bended knee,for the things you are demanding.

Was Ronald Reagan Consedrvatgive enough for you ? Are you even old enough, to have not only voted for him,but also old enough, to remember clearly what his terms in office were actually like ?

You demand a president be " pure ", to a point that even Thomas Jefferson, who was there, unlike YOU, at the writing of the Constitution,and understood it far better than you do, to ponder/haves grave doubts about the Constitutionality of the Louisiana Purchase.Luckily, better heads prevailed and the land was bought and kept. See ? Even one of the framers wasn't as certain about what it meant, as you are.

You don't have even the most tenuous of grasps, as to HOW this nation is run/can be run, what politics is all about,history, or reality.

You don't even know what a " principle " is,how foolish it is to hold on to those vaunted principles, in the face of what could happen, if enough people foolishly followed your lead, nor even, for that matter,what would happen, IF all of your delusional wishes were granted.

Do yourself a favor and read, from the foundings of this country, the contemporaneous writings about ALL of our presidents,unbiased, factual, nonfictional books about ALL of the above,and then ponder on what would happen, should Howard Dean, or any other of the nine dwarves ( and NO, Hillary is NOT running in '04 and neither shall she be " anointed ", at the Dem convention ! )become president and the GOP loses oned or both Houses.

There would NOT be a " revolution ", the Constitution would be utterly null and void, and no, no, a thousand times NO , President Bush is NOT as bad, " the lesser of two evils ", and no matter what you assume, I don't see him as a god, perfect,nor worship him.

[nopardons]

Goldwater, after '64, became quite left. Pat imploded and is just a nutjob now. :-)

[af_vet_rr]

Then you aren't paying attention. Dems are not pro-life, are not pro-second amendment, are not pro-school vouchers, are not pro-tax cuts, are not pro-military....and that's just for starters.

I'm paying attention and that's the problem - I'm seeing big government and pro-illegal immigrant support coming out of what I thought were Republicans and it troubles me a great deal. I live in Texas and illegal immigration is more important to me than many of the stances that democrats have that I disagree with.

To hear my former governor and his staff willing to jeopardize our national security and/or reward illegal behavior to court votes from a certain segment of the population that votes heavily democrat makes me question just how Conservative they are.

Then you are part of the problem and the guidelines were written for people just like you. It's not just about you.

I'm part of the problem for thinking the GOP needs to stick to Conservative values? Whatever, I'm not going to use anybody's guidelines to vote. Just because the shepherd wants to go over the cliff doesn't mean I'm one of the sheep that is going to follow.

[af_vet_rr]

Posted by Jim Robinson to The_Eaglet
On RLC Liberty Caucus 12/12/2003 2:22:46 AM PST #100 of 180

LOL. Yeah, I've had my fill of all politicians. Unfortunately, they're the only kind of people who run for office and get elected. Also, unfortunately, 99% of the elected ones are going to be either Democrat or Republican. And again, unfortunately, the party that has a higher count of its members seated in each chamber, House and or Senate, gets the best shot at enacting its legislative agenda. The minority party is basically relegated to the cloakroom. And, furthermore, in the very rare case that a third party or independent candidate does happen to get elected, he's going to caucus with either the Democrat side or the Republican side so it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

Thanks for posting Jim Robinson's post, he's got it nailed down, and it's unfortunate that we have reached a point where a 3rd party has no chance in doing anything significant. The democrats and Republicans can do whatever they want, knowing that their followers will still vote for them, or at least not switch to the other major party.

I would not vote democrat, and so I can either support a candidate I don't agree with anymore, a 3rd party candidate that will go nowhere, or just not vote at all. Not exactly a wide range of good options.

[gatorbait]

To hear my former governor and his staff willing to jeopardize our national security and/or reward illegal behavior to court votes from a certain segment of the population that votes heavily democrat makes me question just how Conservative they are.

That's the problem;you've "heard". C'mon, don't you remember the old rumor mills when you were in? I do from when I was . Let's see what is really proposed as opposed to first blush,breathless sellout talk. Now, onto something really important, spyware problems.I have them apparently, Any ideas?

[bimbo]

That has happened at the party level first. And in a very Reaganist way, it is TRICKLING down through the ranks. Most of us (do not include me in this)are following the parties move to the left.

The Republican march to the left is mirroring the Democrat march to the left of 35 years ago. Sadly, the demonization of those who disagree, and the subsequent ideological purges have already begun.

[MeekOneGOP]

[LandofLincoln]

My stock answer ... During the conflict between right and left, the right has become the left.

[Leatherneck_MT]

Obviously you either don't care to understand fully what I was saying or I'm not explaining my position to you well enough.

Regardless, I'm not going to continue to discuss things with someone who's only retort to a fellow Republican is to say he's pouting.

Keep it up. This kind of attitude by Republicans to fellow Republicans will end up causing more problems and eventually, lost elections. The condescending attitudes are not appreciated, nor tolerated for very long.

[dcwusmc]

After I wrote to suggest that you knock off the scare tactics and said:

"On the other hand, under current circumstances (which show no sign of changing), I will not vote for Bush, whom I see as the GREATER threat to the Constitution and the Republic. Will I vote some third party or will I simply sit this one out? Dunno yet, but it's MY choice, based solely on my perception of what is best for my country. If you want to change my mind, try using LOGIC, REASON and RATIONALITY, not name-calling, thuggery and scare-mongering. I lost my basic fears in Vietnam and that was a LONG time ago."

-dcwusmc

You came back, cut off my quote, called for backup and called me a Howie Dean supporter. Your FIRST post to me, This makes you a LIAR as well as a scaremonger. This puts you on a par with nopardons and makes you, in my view, a thoroughly disgusting person. You need not respond to me and I will do my utmost to contain my loathing and not reply to your self-serving nonsense in the future.

[Consort]

...I'm not going to use anybody's guidelines to vote. Just because the shepherd wants to go over the cliff doesn't mean I'm one of the sheep that is going to follow.

If you still think that both parties are the same, then the guidelines will get rid of half of the problem...the Democrat half. That's a good start, but it won't work if a bunch of disgruntled maverick wannabes screw it up. And, if the voters wanted more conservatives in office then they would have voted them in.