Posted on 11/24/2003 1:40:19 PM PST by churchillbuff
FRONTLINE obtained this photograph from John B. Ciravolo, Jr., of New Orleans. Ciravolo was also a C.A.P. member in 1955 and says he was in the same unit with Oswald and was standing right in front of him in the photo. Ciravolo identified David Ferrie, while former C.A.P. cadet Tony Atzenhoffer, also of New Orleans, identified Oswald and Ferrie in the photograph, and Colin Hammer, who says he served with both men in the C.A.P., also identified both in the photograph.
FRONTLINE located the photographer, Chuck Frances, who says he took the picture for the C.A.P. Francis also said that when he was interviewed by the FBI, he told them Oswald and Ferrie knew each other, but he did not tell them about the photograph. The executor of Ferrie's estate, as well as Ferrie's godson, also picked out Ferrie.
After the Kennedy assassination, David Ferrie told investigators he never knew Lee Oswald. "I never heard David Ferrie mention Lee Harvey Oswald," said Layton Martens, a former C.A.P. Cadet and a close friend to Ferrie until Ferrie's death in 1967.
But when FRONTLINE showed Martens the photograph, he identified Ferrie. "It does indicate the possibity of an associaton," said Martens, "but if and to what extent is another question. Of course we've all been photographed with people, and we could be presented with photographs later and asked, 'Well, do you know this person? Obviously, you must because you've been photographed with them.' Well no, it's just a photograph, and I don't know that person. It's just someone who happened to be in the picture."
"As dramatic as the discovery of this photograph is after thirty years," says Michael Sullivan, FRONTLINE executive producer for special projects, "one should be cautious in ascribing its meaning. The photograph does give much support to the eyewitnesses who say they saw Ferrie and Oswald together in the C.A.P., and it makes Ferrie's denials that he ever knew Oswald less credible. But it does not prove that the two men were with each other in 1963, nor that they were involved in a conspiracy to kill the president."
IF Oswald was ever in the Civil Air Patrol, it was not mentioned in the bio of him appearing in the Warren Report. At that time Oswald would have been 16 years old, a highschool dropout, and living in New Orleans for only about 16 months before enlisting in the Marines. If he attended CAP meetings, it would have been only a few hours each week and since this was clearly not significant enough to mention in the Warren Report, it is probable that his participation - if any - was so minor that others would easily forget it.
Of course, the "proof", namely a photo from 1955, is something less than that. I remember being told, about 20 years ago, of some photo taken of hoboes being rousted by Dallas police the day of JFK's assassination that supposedly showed Watergate conspirator Howard Hunt, disguised as a homeless person -- at some point Hunt sued and it was demonstrated in court that it was not Hunt in the photo.
Yep. Live your cover.
He's a cog in the conspiracy nutter "theory".
If you figure Ferrie's Internal Mobile Security Units, or IMSUs, the 5-man teams he was training to respond in the event of an attack on the US were a usual summer camp activity that you wouldn't find memorable, you must have been a pretty salty 15-year-old yourself.
Remember that at 17, Oswald was a Marine, qualifying with the M1 Garand rifle about two months after his 17th birthday, in mid-December 1957.
AS it was, whomever (Oswald, 'Mac', some other bogey man) was firing apparently MISSED the first shot - and all three could very well have been missed or badly off-target, so, WHY WASN'T a weapon with a greater rate of firing employed?
There'd have to be a breakdown of three seperate questions to better look into that:
1. WHY was a simple bolt-action single-shot repeating rifle used. The Carcano is a bolt-action repeater IF the six-shot clip that holds the ammunition in line for the feed mechanism, similar to the eight-shot clip of an M1 Garand rifle, is present. Otherwise, the Carcano is a singleshot as you suggest.
2. WHY a Carcano? Price alone? Availability? Why purchase an unknown rifle mail order in a community well-served by gun shops, which Oswald had to go to to obtain ammunition, in any event.
3. WHY that particular model of Carcano? Just luck of the draw, or does it have any particular feature that makes it particularly useful for a rifle-equipped assassin, whether solo or working with partner/s.
Then go *here.*
-archy-/-
Ouch!
" The Warren Commission conclusion that three shots were fired was based, almost entirely, on the recovery of only three shell casings in the "sniper's nest". "
A site which FAILS to mention any account of one Harold Norman et al (who were at a window JUST BELOW the 'firing' position that day) YET delves deeply into the grassy knoll as the source of gunfire that day is off to a disingenuous start in my book.
" Some bystanders, accompanied by police and convinced that shots were fired from the "grassy knoll" area, "Of 200 some witnesses on record that day - 85% of them pointed out the TSBD building as the source of the gunfire; additionally, a number of people, including reporters and photographers SAW the gunman withdraw his weapon from the sixth floor window - THEIR accounts (such as those related by Photographer Bob Jackson who later snapped an award winning photo of Ruby shooting Oswald) are on the web for those seeking confirmation of this ... that's really all that need be said to dismiss the 'grassy knoll' wild goose chase (VERY few people today realize that the 'grassy knoll' theory was a LATER DAY creation as well - NO DUBT in my mind dreampt up and FUELED by a myriad of saleable 'conspiracy theories').
I found no clear answers either as to why only three (apparent) shots were fired that day; the use of a magazine/clip on the MC rifle should have allowed a few more shots (and in a shorter period of time) to have been released - including at least the round that was found in the 'chamber'.
There appears to be substatial misrepresentation on the finger/palm print evidence existing today, too. Whether this is intentional or just the product of much earlier, unrevised work in light of what we know today - I don't know ...
Substance of Harold Norman affidavit:
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the buuilding overlooking Elm Street.Note: The floors of the TSBD building are wooden.Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots.
I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle.
I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
Right after the assassination, a Dallas PI told police that Ferrie was an associate of Oswald. Ferrie was interviewed, said he'd never known Oswald. Now we have a photo placing the two together in a CAP unit eight years earlier. BIG COINCIDENCE, DON'T YOU THINK?
LOL
Because Ferrie told assassination investigators that he didn't know and had never met Oswald. A Dallas PI told police, after the assassination, that Ferrie was linked with Oswald. When they talked to Ferrie, he said he'd never met the man. When it turned out they'd both been in the CAP, he still said he hadn't met him -- and WC supporters say they weren't in at the same time. This photo shows that they were.
Well, the FRONTLINE show interviewed other members of that CAP unit, and they identified both Oswald and Ferrie in the photo. They knew both of them in the unit.
No, I don't. And neither does Robert Oswald, Lee's brother.
Let me get this straight. A Dallas PI tells police in Nov 63 that Oswald is linked to Ferrie. Ferrie tells them that he never met Oswald. Now a photo shows the two of them in a small CAP group only eight years previously. And you don't think that's very coincidental. Hmmm.
That's your statement, not mine. I'm just extremely curious when it turns out that Ferrie - - who was fingered by a PI as having a connection with Oswald, but who claimed he never met Oswald - - was actually with Oswald in a CAP group 8 years before. If the PI was making up stories, then what are the odds that Ferrie and Oswald would actually have been in the same CAP? It's as if somebody, out of the blue and with pure fancy, said that you have a connection with somebody picked at random on the other side of a public restaurant, somebody you've never met and don't know - -- - and then it turns out the two of you were in a Scout group a decade before. The odds against that are very high. More plausible, I would think, is that Ferrie was lying when he said he didn't know Oswald
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