Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators

Richardpoe.com ^ | 10-27-03 | Richard Poe

[SJackson]

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 at 13:41

Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators

In a recent blog entry titled, "I've Been Red-Baited!", I wrote, "I'm not familiar with LibertyForum.org, but it appears to be an anti-Bush, anti-war message board with a distinctly anti-Jewish undertone."

A member of LibertyForum.org named Max Soldo (aka "thoughtcriminal") has responded by e-mail and provided further clarification of LibertyForum's political orientation. He writes:

This forum is a libertarian forum, and is devoted to the libertarian concept of unabashed free speech. With that principle in mind, most posters aren't libertarian as many fringe types have taken advantage of this policy (which includes a no-banning policy) to run amok...hence the preponderance of anti-Jewish posts on this forum.

All of this raises interesting questions for any message board moderator -- such as myself -- who has tried his best to allow a relatively high level of free expression. Inevitably, Nazi trolls find your forum and begin probing your defenses. If you allow them to post messages, they immediately spread the word to other Nazi trolls and soon your message board is infested.

At that point, all the normal people stop posting. It's a bit like when a fight breaks out in a bar and everyone stops talking and turns to watch the fight, transfixed. Suddenly, your message board becomes an arena for Nazi trolls and people arguing with Nazi trolls.

This is called "free speech."

I decided long ago that allowing Nazi trolls to occupy my message board and drive off everyone who does not share their idiosyncratic obsessions is a very poor method for encouraging "free speech." Therefore, I make frequent and forceful use of such allegedly un-libertarian methods as censoring and, when necessary, banning troublemakers, brownshirted or otherwise.

Apparently, the decision-makers at LibertyForum.org have adopted a different approach. As a result, their self-styled "libertarian" message board has become, by Mr. Soldo's description, a playground for non-libertarian "fringe types" to "run amok."

"It does get quite ugly at times, but that's the price one pays for sticking to one's principles," writes Mr. Soldo in a subsequent e-mail.

Well, if that's the price, I don't think I'm willing to pay it. I will add the sad fate of LibertyForum.org to my growing list of reasons for rethinking whether or not I wish to continue calling myself a "libertarian."

 

[Dane]

Perhaps....

Or perhaps there are other ways of dealing with the potential of these sources of noise that don't require censorship and overt control...

Many are under consideration.

That's what makes the net fun

Dude, replace the next to the last word of your above italiciced passage with the word "commune" and your above italicized passage could have been lifted from a 60's Berkeley flyer, IMO.

[Avoiding_Sulla]

We differ on the reasoning behind the forum, not on 'nuance'..

That readily depends upon what level, what undercurrent, you can legitimately see and are willing to confront. Ability to confront often includes employing tools. A troll button may filter out what needs to be removed at the right time and place.
For simple examples,
• without the right filter a 3-D presentation is outside your comprehension.
• With the right noise filters, you can hear a pin drop in a crowded stadium.
  The use of a filter does not mean you retreat into a cacoon and never reemerge. In the right hand, it is simply a tool.
• Would deny the skilled access to a tool unusable by the unskilled in the pursuit of, say, egality?
• Or Would deny the skilled access merely in pursuit of some other goal yet to be specified?
• Or would deny the skilled access because you fear they might not be skilled enough, IYHO?
• Or would deny the skilled access because you fear that the tool might fall into the unskilleds' hands?

Here's the trump card on that issue: [really?]
"Free Republic is a place for people to discuss our common goals regarding the restoration of our constitutionally limited republican form of government. If people have other agendas for FR, I really wish they would take them elsewhere."

But what of those who so imbalance and spam a thread so heavily -- so mob rule it -- that buried at number 743 and 1098 are the most relevant two posts that nobody ever saw?

Are those too posts left to the province only of those who have the time to wade through 2000 posts of a hijacked thread? What if the people who have the time are not the skilled who see the connection between 743 & 1098? Just too bad for the republic?

I don't know tpaine. Sounds more democratic than republican in approach -- but that's just this particular iconoclast's humble opinion.

Nope -- no nuance here.

[SJackson]

You're welcome, your sites reputation appears to be well earned, and I'm sure you're picking up new adherents as we speak.

BTW, I've posted there so you're, you're stirring up new business in the wrong place. Nice to be baited here though.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Oh yeah, and I want a pony!

Sorry, we are out of ponies

Here is a kitten with deathray eyes.

[Frunabulax]

IMHO any unmoderated forum is an open invitation to a de facto denial of service attack, in which the perspective of the forum is drowned out by noise expressing other perspectives without limit.

I see no constructive point to any such forum, over any length of time.

Actually, if you look at their posting rules it seems they do have a moderated forum in spite of their free speech claims.

[Avoiding_Sulla]

Darn it all.

Those should all read "would you" and not just "would" alone.

[Romulus]

your sites reputation appears to be well earned,

Since you post there too, it must be "your" site as much as mine.

I've posted there so you're, you're stirring up new business in the wrong place.

I'm assuming your cronies are capable of independent thought. Maybe they'd like to join you and me at that "hate" site.

[r9etb]

Or perhaps there are other ways of dealing with the potential of these sources of noise that don't require censorship and overt control...

So you're basically telling us that it's possible to keep the whackjobs at bay without actually doing anything to keep them at bay....

But eventually you're going to need some means of enforcement. No way around it. Overt control doesn't have to be a bad thing.

[tpaine]

We differ on the reasoning behind the forum, not on 'nuance'..

That readily depends upon what level, what undercurrent, you can legitimately see and are willing to confront. Ability to confront often includes employing tools.

Meaningless rhetoric.

A troll button may filter out what needs to be removed at the right time and place.

It might.. But the idiot that filtered out my words of wisdom would suffer the consequences of his/her stupidity.

For simple examples, without the right filter a 3-D presentation is outside your comprehension. With the right noise filters, you can hear a pin drop in a crowded stadium. The use of a filter does not mean you retreat into a cacoon and never reemerge. In the right hand, it is simply a tool. Would deny the skilled access to a tool unusable by the unskilled in the pursuit of, say, egality? Or Would deny the skilled access merely in pursuit of some other goal yet to be specified? Or would deny the skilled access because you fear they might not be skilled enough, IYHO? Or would deny the skilled access because you fear that the tool might fall into the unskilleds' hands?

Rave on..

Here's the trump card on that issue:

"Free Republic is a place for people to discuss our common goals regarding the restoration of our constitutionally limited republican form of government. If people have other agendas for FR, I really wish they would take them elsewhere."
-JR-

But what of those who so imbalance and spam a thread so heavily -- so mob rule it -- that buried at number 743 and 1098 are the most relevant two posts that nobody ever saw? Are those too posts left to the province only of those who have the time to wade through 2000 posts of a hijacked thread? What if the people who have the time are not the skilled who see the connection between 743 & 1098? Just too bad for the republic?

Yep, too bad for the one who used the filter, and can't, or won't, follow the debate..

I don't know tpaine. Sounds more democratic than republican in approach -- but that's just this particular iconoclast's humble opinion. Nope -- no nuance here.

That you "don't know" sums it up nicely. -- Thanks.

[tpaine]

Don't sweat it. -- No one had a clue what yor point was..

[Jim Robinson]

Hey, it's a free country and a free market. I don't know about you, but I cherish and defend and exercise my constitutional right to freely control the content and use of my personal private property. Likewise, I dearly love and openly exercise and aggressively defend my first amendment rights to free speech and freedom of association.

America is the land I love and I defend her and our Liberty with every fibre of my being.

I set up Free Republic to promote the conservative point of view (not necessarily the Libertarian point of view) and invited other like-minded conservatives to join me. I never intended to create a liberal or even libertarian debating society.

True, I may have allowed things to get a bit out of hand in the earlier years, but I eventually recognized the error of my ways and have since corrected course.

Liberals infest and control the government, our justice systems, our legal professions, our educational institutions, our media, our churches, our charities and every aspect of our society, families and personal lives. Liberalism is a cancer and it's feeding on our society and our American way of life. Untreated, it will destroy us.

We ARE the dissenters. Free Republic is intended to be a liberal-free zone where conservatives can be free to discuss issues important to ourselves without having liberal trolls and other slimeballs jamming their gnarly diseased thumbs in our eyes at every turn.

This is not a liberal debating society. It's a place for conservative discussion and activism. We have certain goals in mind and have on going conservative activism projects at all times. We do not need, nor do we appreciate naysaying trolls dogging our efforts.

Liberals are not welcome here. Nor are abortionists, feminists, homosexualists, environmentalists, gun grabbers, anti Americans of any kind, peaceniks, pacifists, U.N. lovers, world government advocates, socialists, communists, marxists, anarchists, fascists, nazis, skinheads, whackos, propagandists of any stripe, tinfoil hatters, whacked out conspiracy theorists, religious bigots, racists, white supremacists, anti-Semites, Holocaust deniers, violence advocates, violence prone revolutionaries, uni-bombers, sociopaths, perverts, spammers, hawkers, solicitors, self promoters, trolls, trashers or bashers, whiners, etc., etc.

Most Libertarians are ok as long as they don't fall too much in line with any of the above unwanted categories and don't go into the bashing/trashing mode or otherwise become anti-FR trolls.

Otherwise, you are certainly free to join any of the other forums on the internet (it's a big FREE world out there) where you may feel more comfortable, or even to create and operate your own free speech haven and operate it any old way that pleases your pea-pickin' heart.

In the meantime, if you desire to remain on Free Republic you're certainly welcome to do so, but I really do wish you would learn to quit harping your victimhood. It's very annoying and does not necessarily reflect well on libertarianism in general.

[headsonpikes]

Next time you register here try the more apropos FReepername 'Catiline'.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

That extreme libertarianism ends with extremes is not all that surprising. Just as extreme liberalism ends up as Communism or baggy-trouser-wearing grunge mutts with nose rings on heroin. All those who think you can have a civilized society without Christian morality might want to take note. A society which is a sort of cross between Mad Max and Bladerunner is not exactly one where one should expect a lot of polite conversations over white wine about John Stuart Mill and Adam Smith, as if that would make much sense by that point. I guess they would take comfort in the fact that Mad Max and the skinheads had ample access to condoms.

[EternalVigilance]

Don't know how you could have made it much clearer than that.

[RightOnline]

Oh, just stop it. For pete's sake.........I wish nothing but the very best for other conservative / libertarian Web sites. Really do. The overwhelming majority here would agree with that. Taking pot shots at friends and allies is just immature silliness.

Guess I'm just tired of watching circular firing squads around here, guys. Really, really, REALLY f**king tired of it.

We KNOW who our collective enemies are. Let's use our energies on them, shall we?

[gcruse]

From what I can tell the folks in charge at Liberty Post are making an effort not to allow their site to become a dumping ground for the nutters, anti-semitic and otherwise.

LP is selective in its ME dialogue guidelines.
Not long after electing to post frequently there I got a timeout
warning for advocating the extermination of Palestinians following
some egregious (aren't they all?) attack on civilian Israeli targets.
Needless to say, posters advocating Israel's destruction have a
clear playing field. 

[exmarine]

Communist marxist trolls aren't a problem? Just Nazis? After all, they're all socialists. ;)

[ladyinred]

Nope, LibertyForum is also disgruntled former freepers. At least it started out that way.

[AmishDude]

IIRC, how come we haven't crossed paths before?

Because you are an individual with extraordinary taste.

[gcruse]

We all know that there is garbage in this world, the question is, how do we deal with it?

The way it is dealt with on Usenet.  By open debate, refutation with superiour
ideas, and ridicule where necessary.  Clamping off half the debate by banning
the side you dislike least, just lets air out of the balloon.