Posted on 10/27/2003 11:53:33 AM PST by SJackson
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 at 13:41
Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators
In a recent blog entry titled, "I've Been Red-Baited!", I wrote, "I'm not familiar with LibertyForum.org, but it appears to be an anti-Bush, anti-war message board with a distinctly anti-Jewish undertone."
A member of LibertyForum.org named Max Soldo (aka "thoughtcriminal") has responded by e-mail and provided further clarification of LibertyForum's political orientation. He writes:
This forum is a libertarian forum, and is devoted to the libertarian concept of unabashed free speech. With that principle in mind, most posters aren't libertarian as many fringe types have taken advantage of this policy (which includes a no-banning policy) to run amok...hence the preponderance of anti-Jewish posts on this forum.
All of this raises interesting questions for any message board moderator -- such as myself -- who has tried his best to allow a relatively high level of free expression. Inevitably, Nazi trolls find your forum and begin probing your defenses. If you allow them to post messages, they immediately spread the word to other Nazi trolls and soon your message board is infested.
At that point, all the normal people stop posting. It's a bit like when a fight breaks out in a bar and everyone stops talking and turns to watch the fight, transfixed. Suddenly, your message board becomes an arena for Nazi trolls and people arguing with Nazi trolls.
This is called "free speech."
I decided long ago that allowing Nazi trolls to occupy my message board and drive off everyone who does not share their idiosyncratic obsessions is a very poor method for encouraging "free speech." Therefore, I make frequent and forceful use of such allegedly un-libertarian methods as censoring and, when necessary, banning troublemakers, brownshirted or otherwise.
Apparently, the decision-makers at LibertyForum.org have adopted a different approach. As a result, their self-styled "libertarian" message board has become, by Mr. Soldo's description, a playground for non-libertarian "fringe types" to "run amok."
"It does get quite ugly at times, but that's the price one pays for sticking to one's principles," writes Mr. Soldo in a subsequent e-mail.
Well, if that's the price, I don't think I'm willing to pay it. I will add the sad fate of LibertyForum.org to my growing list of reasons for rethinking whether or not I wish to continue calling myself a "libertarian."
The point I was making was that it tends to get a bit overabundant (such as with sycophants encouraging primals with mindless bump after bump, or by slapping each other on the back with how good the last slimer's point was and how lame was the idea of their pidgeon).
It's called hijacking a thread. You've never seen it happen I suppose?
It can be done with shear volume (spam) or it can be done with the unsavory.
The troll button only gives a little respite so that a more serious or purposeful group can still communicate. Kinda like adults talking above the heads of the juveniles who are trying to get unwarranted attention or who don't like what the parents have planned for them. More effective too. :^)
Dude dirtboy, if you are going to mention me by name in one of your replies(as you did in your reply #99) I would you request that you have the courage to "ping" me if you mention me by name(which it seems you do not have, IMO).
Oh BTW, I already know that I mentioned Jim, in one of my replies on this thread(with OWK), but in an earlier exchange with jmc813(where jmc813 used Jim's name and didn't ping Jim and where I pointed it out, Jim requested that he not be "pinged").
Fine with me, but I am also not Jim, and would request that if you(dirtboy) mention me by name in one of your replies, that you have the courage to "ping" me in the future.
It made for interesting reading anyway and provided a radical world view to keep the place lively.
There was even the case of some crazy guy, Leo Wanta who was saying the weirdest stuff in a Wisconsin courtroom that received national exposure on FR.
The conspiracy rantors came and went all the time but the community at large stayed together. While I appreciate your point of view--far more than you care for my crack-pot world view, right?-- if only because it's unique in its radical centrism, its not exactly the best point of view for a conservative libertarian website.
Now you're blaming Jim because your site did exactly as it promised and turned into a cesspool? I've seen maybe 3 or 4 times Jim has referenced LF and it was usually after the perp was jettisoned.
If you didn't think that was exactly what was going to happen to LF when those rules were posted, all of you were naive.
I guess it beats re-examining the premises of the site. Seriously, would anyone here hold an open party at their home where anyone could walk in the door? Why should a web forum be different? Freedom of association isn't just part of the 1st Amendment, it's vital for just about any human endeavor.
Whatever dude, have fun stewing in your own bitter juices. Whatever floats your, IMO, conceited boat.
I may have misunderstood So by exercising property rights on his own forum, he doesn't think he is a libertarian anymore? . I took you to mean that Poe had effectively abandoned libertarinism (and I don’t know if he’s a libertarian to begin with), by enforcing his right, as owner of the site, to control content.
JohnRob is rumored to have a personalized troll button awaiting in the wings. That offers one solution. Do you think it a worthy enough idea to pass along?
Great idea, [seriously]. -- All those who lack the guts for debate could just tune it out.
- I wonder, do they realize that it is they themselves who would end up being ignored?
Actually the troll button doesn't really tuned it all out. The user of such a button only gets SOME of the slime. It is second-hand slime, as those who are willing to wade thru the muck will post excerpts of it.
You say debate is 'slime'.. I say it's the reason for the forums existence.. Telling difference of view.
The point I was making was that it tends to get a bit overabundant (such as with sycophants encouraging primals with mindless bump after bump, or by slapping each other on the back with how good the last slimer's point was and how lame was the idea of their pidgeon). It's called hijacking a thread. You've never seen it happen I suppose?
Indeed I did, -- right here, and I commented on it to S Jackson.. These nazi slimers must be controled!!! [sarcasm]
It can be done with shear volume (spam) or it can be done with the unsavory. The troll button only gives a little respite so that a more serious or purposeful group can still communicate. Kinda like adults talking above the heads of the juveniles who are trying to get unwarranted attention or who don't like what the parents have planned for them. More effective too. :^)
As I said, -- I'd really like to see it tried.
I'd bet it might have the unintended consequense of shutting up the biggest bunch of whiners on FR, --- my critics... [sarcasm]
HAHAHAHAHA. That'd be the day. His ego is far too big.
Blame?
Nah... Jim did what Jim does best.. a little subtle manipulation, and voila.. his headache is now someone else's.
Not a problem... we'll deal with it.
Free speech is worth it.
Does it come without warts? No.
There'll always be fools.
We operate on the assumption that a fool is better rebutted than intimidated or censored.
We don't have a collection of Dales' over at LibertyForum.
No "dossiers" to whip out.. no implied threats.. no "zots".
Truth wins there, because it is true.. not because it is prescribed and enforced.
Does it take work?
Sure.
Does it subject you to outside criticism from those predisposed to smear? Yup..
But all in all... it's worth it.
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