"Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- General George S. Patton
Posted on 03/05/2002 1:30:33 PM PST by Capitalist Eric
Edited on 04/23/2004 12:04:15 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
"Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- General George S. Patton
That, Soldiers dying IS NOT a good sign. But the article was good none the less.
The key point, though, is that you can't achieve your objective without engaging the enemy and that's almost impossible to do without sustaining casualties, even though the US has gotten very, very good at minimizing our own.
Commanders have to make the D to put their soldiers into harms way, weighing casualties against gain - that is their job. The soldiers themselves have the job of trying to achieve the objectives given them. That they try to preserve their lives while doing this is more of a natural expectation that a part of their job description - just look at a few citations for posthumous VC's or Medals Of Honour etc. to see that preservation of life isn't even a constant or job requirement.
Excellent post, Eric!
Ignore Illbay. He's one of the 'soft-bellied' ones. If you ignore him, he will go away. If you engage him, he will only continue to vomit-up his own personal self-hatred at never having had the balls to be a Soldier.
Stay well and vigilant.......FRegards
Just don't tell me any of this was a "good sign."
Be honest: Did your gut not just WRENCH when you heard this news? These men died in a good cause, perhaps the most sure mission we've had since World War II (with absolutely no regard given to "Puff" Daschle's idiotic statements).
Still it's hard to fathom yet more American lives lost. Like most other right-thinking Americans, I will accept it, but it will be with a few tears shed, and NO ONE will convince me it's a "good sign."
"These men died in a good cause." No question. They are brave heroes who died fighting that others may live.
But quite honestly, I also had the same initial reaction as the author and I turned to my wife and said so. It has been obvious for some time that large numbers of Al Qaeda, including many senior commanders and staff, survived the initial campaign and are regrouping in remote eastern Afghanistan. The ambush of a special forces soldier near Khost a few weeks ago and continued air attacks on groups near Khost based on aerial surveillance were tip offs, to me anyway.
So, with sadness for lost comrades, I'm glad that Gen. Franks ordered the attack. Because I sure as hell don't want the Army to have to go back there and do this all over again because we didn't finish the job the first time.
War is a horror that should always remain so.Those who are active participants, only do so to protect the people they love from this horror.
Hopefully, all civillians should not understand completely the sacrifices the warriors make.It is enough if you reallise someone did sacrifice greatly to protect and defend a way of life that we all hold dear.If all were warriors, there would be nothing worth fighting for.
To acknowledge that someone must pay the price for our way of life is all any warrior would ask a civillian.Your complete understanding would negate the sacrifice that had to be made.
If a serviceman or veteran seems flippant or indifferent to casualties,I can assure you that is not an accurate description of their attitude, but rather a continuation of a desire to keep those they love from the horror of what had to be done.
Tell me that any wife, sibling or parent that has lost a loved one in harm's way doesn't understand. They do.
I have not seen the current film "We Were Soldiers" yet, but according to one review I read, this film is striking in the way it portrays the reaction of the survivors of soldiers lost in combat. They say, almost unanimously "we knew it might come to this, and we feel he made this sacrifice in the cause of his country, and we are content."
I DO believe that is the way the families of these brave men who have died in this battle will react--I'd be shocked to hear any of them complain. But it is a solemn and sobering thing to realize that even as we speak, one of our country's finest might be paying the ultimate price for our freedom.
It should make us that much more resolved, that these shall not have died in vain.
Although you'll never hear a single simpering lefty ever express it in this way, the true ignomy and disgrace of the Vietnam conflict was that the sacrifice of those 50,000 plus dead became meaningless because this country lost its soul, or rather, allowed the most cowardly, craven and despicable among us, who never had souls to begin with, to call the shots.
I know things are different now. All I can hope is that the infidels like Tom Daschle are taken to task for the insult heaped upon our Commander in Chief.
Looks like there are going to be some important lessons learned from this – there’s that great problem of taking a relatively fragile box full of pers. and placing it on the ground in difficult terrain without ending up in your enemies KZ.
My first impression was that the MH-47’s might need more armament if they are going to fly missions like these – I don’t know much about the craft, and I first heard they carry a single door mounted 7.62mm GPMG.
It turns out they also carry two miniguns, which is a great leap in firepower, but probably not effective in suppressing multiple RPG/HMG pits – which is what you’d probably expect. I’m not too sure what arcs these things cover either – I recall hearing that Russian Hinds were fitted with rear facing guns to deal with ambushes.
I don’t know if observation can be bolstered, or more firepower added, but without knowing the full story, I think they may have to make a concession and stop operating these things in constricted terrain.
No. You're (again) dead-wrong. It has NOTHING to do with public relations, and everything to do with fact.
FACT: To do an effective job of rooting out the terrorists- wherever they are- necessitates the use of ground forces. This means close-quarters combat, with weapons like shotguns, HK submachine guns, knives and hand-grenades.
FACT: In this environment, there will be casualties.
If there are none??? This means we aren't serious about doing the job, and letting the bastards off easy.
FACT: THIS IS ABOUT KILLING PEOPLE.
Given the above facts, it's unreasonable to expect we'll not have casualties. It's stupid, niave, ignorant. It't also something we all knew, when we signed up. We did, anyway, betting that we'll be quicker on the draw, and kill the bad guy before he kills us. Every serviceman, every one of them, knows this in their heart of hearts.
Don't give me this bullsh!t about how that knowledge, and the fact that we're having casualties actually indicates a seriousness not seen in ten years... Don't tell me that this is bad PR.
The only thing that's bad, around here, is statements based on rampant ignorance, being imparted by you... BTW, SmartBlonde, you give the truly smart blondes a bad name...
All of us will die.There is a difference in how and why people die.I will gladly die of old age, if I can, as would anyone.But I would ask on behalf of those who die in war,that you understand their deaths are felt beyond their family and friends.And that their sacrifice is truly that,and not an error someone might have made.
At some point, you must allow that the warriors have a right to grieve thir own.Those who risk thier lives for us all must be allowed their own rules of grief and judgement.It is a very exclusive club,by design.The dues are steep.If you have not paid the price,do not expect entree.Members do not recruit.
Sometimes feel like I'm the only one out here who gets it, you know?
FReegards to you, sir,
Oh well.We do have the snicker factor on our side. Some more than most.(im a some,not a most)Good thread anyway.
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