Posted on 02/13/2002 5:30:35 PM PST by CCWoody
The Goal of God in Redemptive History
A brief and selected overview
Psalm 115:1-3 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto Thy name give glory, for Thy mercy and for Thy truth's sake. Why should the heathen say, "Where now is their God?" But our God is in the heavens; He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased.
God's ultimate purpose for all that He does is to preserve and display His glory. It is uppermost in His affections and he prizes and delights in His glory above all things. Anybody who can grasp and understand how precious this is to God will have unlocked the door to the fullness of joy and pleasures forever more (Psalm 16:11) for they will have understood exactly what this means:
The Chief end of man is to Glorify God
BY
Enjoying Him forever!
The term "glory of God" generally refers to the visible splendor or moral beauty of God. With the Psalmist, I too have a strong desire to behold the beauty of the LORD (Psalm 27:4), to simply feel awe and wonder in all that He is. It is for this purpose that God has created man; for His Glory (Revelation 4:11).
Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.
Man, who is created last of all God's work is the only creature to be in His image. He is given dominion and commanded to subdue and fill the earth (1:28). Numbers 14:21 expresses God's purpose in all of this when the Lord says: all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. Man has been given the exhalted status to bear the image of the Creator so that he will reflect the glory of his Maker.
Therefore, it should come as no surprise that when they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man (Romans 1:23) that God has a perfect right to be furious.
The vast majority of professing Christians simply do not understand the full nature of verses like Romans 1:18: For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness. Yet, the Psalmist David captures the essence of exactly why God is furious at man. Not only have we filled the earth with the corruptible image of man instead of the incorruptible image of God, but we have directly profaned God with our sin:
Psalm 51:3-4 For I acknowledge my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight, that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest, and be clear when Thou judgest.
Behold the words of the Lord in Psalm 78:30-31 after Israel spoke against God (v. 19) saying "Can God prepare a table in the wilderness?":
But they were not estranged from their lust; but while their meat was yet in their mouths, the wrath of God came upon them and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
They simply do not understand that this is the Lord:
Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes.
The vast majority of professing Christians simply cannot understand that this is simply not some isolated event in scripture. God is holy and we are not. We constantly profane His name and tempt Him. And it is precisely this lack of understanding which has given them over to the error that God has purposed a desire to save everyone. He has not. The evidence is clear enough for those willing to read and understand the scriptures.
Egypt
God saves, not for our sake, but for the sake of His holy name; for His glory. We are the beneficiary of His mercy, not the primary purpose. When one understands this, one understands his proper place. Man is not the center of salvation. The display of God's glory is:
Romans 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
Ezekel 20:8-9 But they rebelled against Me and would not hearken unto Me. They did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt. "`Then I said, "I will pour out My fury upon them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt." But I wrought for My name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen among whom they were, in whose sight I made Myself known unto them in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt.
Exodus 14:4,18 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this…. The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen."
It is there in black and white for all to see. God acts for His glory and for His name's sake. The prototype of salvation in the Passover Lamb is for His glory. Scripture specifically affirms that together with salvation for His chosen people, God destroyed the firstborn of all Egypt. Salvation and damnation; both for the glory of God. Isaiah 43:3 says the following: For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I gave Egypt for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
Cross Work
Yet, the God of the New Testament is the same God of the Old Testament (Malachi 3:6): For I am the Lord, I do not change. And again (Hebrews 13:8) Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 1:1-4 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
When the Father looks on the Son, He beholds the brightness of His own glory and the express image of His own person. When God contemplates His own glory in the image of the Son it brings Him great delight (Isaiah 42:1): Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! The very method with which God has chosen to effect salvation is designed to reveal His own Glory in the Person of the Son.
John 17:4-5 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 12:28-28 "Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify Thy name." Then there came a voice from Heaven, saying, "I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN."
The purpose of Jesus' death was to glorify the Father. To be willing as the Son of God to suffer the loss of so much glory himself in order to repair the injury done to God's glory by our sin showed how infinitely valuable the glory of God is. To be sure, the death of Christ also shows God's love for us. But we are not at the center.
God put forward his Son on the cross "to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins" (Romans 3:25). In other words, by forgiving sin in the Old Testament and by tolerating many sinners, God had given the impression that his honor and glory were not of infinite worth. Now to vindicate the honor of His name and the worth of His glory, He required the death of His own Son. Thus Christ suffered and died for the glory of the Father. This demonstrates the righteousness of God, because God's righteousness is His unswerving allegiance to uphold the value of His glory. - John Piper from Desiring God (pg. 264-5)
Christ does not exist to make much about man; to crawl up to him and beg that he should accept Him as Savior lest He invade the citadel of man's free will. Quite the contrary, we exist to make much of and enjoy Him. It is demanded of us. And He has made it so easy. If we would only cast our burdens on Him we would be sustained by Him (Psalm 55:22). If we would only call upon Him we would be delivered and we would Glorify Him (Psalm 50:15). He takes great delight in the display of His grace upon those who delight in Him:
Isaiah 46:1-5 Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle. Your carriages were heavy laden; they are a burden to the weary beast. They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
"Hearken unto Me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, who are borne by Me from the belly, who are carried from the womb: And even to your old age I am He, and even to hoary hairs will I carry you. I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
"To whom will ye liken Me and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?
Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Luke 22:27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.
Our Great God is not like pagan idols. They are a burden. Our God will bear us up and carry us if our delight is in Him. For how can we worship him with our hands. It is our God who gives life and breath and all things. (Acts 17:25) For those of us who eagerly wait for Him, he prepares a table for us in the presence of our enemies (Psalm 23:5). We delight ourselves in Him; He gets Glory.
The Coming Day of our Lord
For now, we walk by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7), but the day is coming when our faith will be swallowed up because we shall see him come in all His glory. For now we see Christ in our hearts (Ephesians 1:18) and it is there that we have the knowledge of the glory of God (2Cor 4:6) but our blessed hope is in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13). Like the lightning, so will be the Son of Man in His day (Luke 17:24). He shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him (Matthew 25:31). Not just some, but ALL of His angels and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands (Revelation 5:11). Heaven will empty in the Glorious day of the Lord.
His coming is the revelation of His glory (1 Peter 4:13) and every saint will be a partaker of the glory to be revealed (1 Peter 5:1). The joy of the saints will be in the revealed Glory of Christ (1 Peter 4:13). He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (1 Thess 1:10). The Glory of the Lord will be salvation (Hebrews 9:28). He shall change our vile bodies into the likeness of the body of His glory (Philippians 3:21). In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we will be changed (1 Cor 15:52).
And it will also be the fire of judgement (2 Thess 1:7). Every unbeliever will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the Lord and His glory (2 Thess 1:9). The kings of the earth and the slaves will hide themselves in caves and cry out to the rocks "fall on us and hide us from the wrath of the Lamb" (Revelation 6:15-16).
But to those of us who eagerly away for His return:
Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants whom the lord, when he cometh, shall find watching. Verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
He will not give up the glory of being the grace giver. Our God works for those who wait for Him (Isaiah 30:18, 64:4).
Come magnify the LORD with me,
And let us exalt His name together.
Let us bow down before Him in awe and wonder
to the glory of His name.
It is God who gives life and when the child is born, it is that first breath that begins it as a individual person. See elsewhere that same expression is used as it is in Gen.2:7 (Gen.7:22,1Ki.17:17,Job.27:3,33:4,Isa.2:22 etc) However,I do not have a problem with someone thinking otherwise.
Again, I don't understand the application to Rom. 5:8 except to say that maybe this means those who died unborn before Jesus went to hell and those after go to Heaven. That of course, if this is what you meant, also needs some explaining to me.
I do not understand. What you are thinking I said about Rom.5:18? The verse is explaining that being in Adam makes us savable since the Second Adam's grace was greater then the 1st Adam's sin. We need only accept the free gift (Jn.1:12,Rom.23)
See 2Sam.12:23 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. Now, this is very convincing if in fact this is what David is saying and if what he is assuming is true. It would be interesting to know, from Jewish history perhaps, what the Jews believed about infant mortality and the soul. But in my limited knowledge of the meaning of this passage, I could also point out that David may in fact have been saying that it was useless for him to mourn because he will never be able to see the child again. "I shall go to him" may simply mean that he can cry for the child and "but he will not return to me" may mean that the child is not comming back.
I have heard that explanation but what comfort would that be?
But I would not have you be ignorant brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as other which have no hope.(1Thes.4:13)
This is were, IMO, a Calvinist (which I am not) can argue that some of these unborn will go to heaven and some will not; some are elect and some are not.
Yes, that is what even Calvin addmitted was a 'horrible dictum' of the Sovereign Decree
That is where infant baptism comes in, to stop that from happening. As a Baptist I totally reject infant baptism.
God has perfect Foreknowledge.
God knows ALL who will die in Infancy.
JOHN CALVIN'S POSITION: God would be perfectly Just to damn the Race of Man for our sin in Adam; but His mercies are so Great, He has seen fit to irresistibly apply the perfect and absolute Atoning Merit of Christ's Death to those whom He foreknows as dying in Infancy, reserving Judgment of Everlasting Death only to those as He sees fit (in His absolute Sovereignty) to permit to live to the age of moral competency, thereby permitting these Moral Competents, of their own Free Will, to despise the provision of Mercy which He has made for their souls, and Deny the Worship of Adoration unto the Son which the Son, for His sacrifice, is rightly due.
Will you DENY the Sovereign God's Absolute Right to apply the Atoning Merit of Christ's Death to all those He foreknew as dying in Infancy? GOD FORBID!! He may save whomsoever He wills, and if He has willed to unilaterally and irresistibly apply the Atonement of Grace to all those He foreknows as dying in Infancy, then what is that to you?
Will you deny His Sovereignty?
Will you protest His Right to Save those who die before the age of moral competency, if He sees fit?! These infants are not your Dirt, they are His Dirt, and He may apply Christ's Blood to them, and Save them from Adam's Fall, if He sees fit!!
You are not even invited to the Eternal Council between the Father and the Son on the matter of those who die in Infancy; what is that to you, oh Dirt, if He should see fit to Save them according to His pleasure?
Worry not for those who die in Infancy. "Of such as these, is the Kingdom of Heaven". Your duty is that of one whom God has permitted to attain the age of Moral Competency, as one whom God has permitted to grow into the exercise of Free Will.
Your Duty is to Worship the Son, for as one who is Morally Competent, you are able to Worship the Son, and so from you, Worship of the Son is a rightful Due.
And this is the curious, sobering, interesting thing about God's Predestination:
God may irresistibly, unilaterally, and purely of His Own sovereign decision, Save all whom He foreknows as dying in Infancy if He sees fit.
What is that to you?
He will take care of the Little Ones.
Your duty is to Him.
Woody, you do not understand what you believe!
The fact is the passages I highlighted any Arminian could 'amen' to. Now, where is the Total Depravity in a passage that quotes scripture that puts if as the requirement for something to get accomplished. According to Calvinism there are no If's everything has been Decreed and directly willed by God.
What is this 'respect' stuff? Respect is something you earn by being honest.
You are NOT a Baptist.
The European AnaBaptists and the English Baptists were Calvinist to the core, throughout the middle ages (in the case of the European AnaBaptists) and from the beginning of their denomination (in the case of the English Baptists).
Are you a Baptist according to the expressly-Calvinist creeds of the Baptist Confession of 1644? No? I thought not.
Are you a Baptist according to the expressly-Calvinist creeds of the Baptist Confession of 1689? No? I thought not.
You are NO BAPTIST. Contrary to the claims of post-modernist Clintonist word-parsing, words mean things, and the word "Baptist" means, among other things, Calvinist. Sovereign Grace. Absolute Predestination.
This is what "Baptist" means.
Why do you think that Calvinist Baptists were called "OLD SCHOOL Baptists", and Arminians were called "NEW SCHOOL Baptists"?!
News Flash, FTD, the terminology itself -- "old-school", "new-school" -- ought to give you a hint.
You are NOT a Baptist.
You are an immersionist Romanist -- one who believes in Immersion, but affirms the Romanist Gospel.
THIS is the Romanist Gospel: Resistible Grace + Free Will.
THIS is the Baptist Gospel: Irresistible Grace creates New Will.
You are no "Baptist", but a schismatic Romanist who claims the name of "baptist", and so to the Baptists who are threshing that part of the Lord's vineyard, I will leave you.
Salvation is now a free gift (Rom.6.23). It can however be rejected(Jn.16:9) and thus rules out Univeralism.
Finally, while a Calvinist cannot say any baby is part of the elect (and infant baptism can't make him one) he could say that an infant does die because he is part of the elect. For example, in 1King 14:13
And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the Lord God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam
It is well with my soul in this regard OP.....I didn't think I would ever say that :>)
This exchange is funny!! - the_docIsn't it! Just look at his reply.
Woody, you do not understand what you believe! - fortheDeclaration
I propose a new way of dealing with fortheDeclaration. Let's not debate him any more until he manages to define our position in what he is attempting to refute. He has been around for long enough to understand what we believe.
I suggest that we simply explain that he has yet to state our position. It is really an issue of the will in that he does not want to even try. It is a depravity thing, isn't it. BTW, here is what he doesn't understand. Can you see the presentation of Total Depravity in this passage of mine:
Christ does not exist to make much about man; to crawl up to him and beg that he should accept Him as Savior lest He invade the citadel of man's free will. Quite the contrary, we exist to make much of and enjoy Him. It is demanded of us. And He has made it so easy. If we would only cast our burdens on Him we would be sustained by Him (Psalm 55:22). If we would only call upon Him we would be delivered and we would Glorify Him (Psalm 50:15). He takes great delight in the display of His grace upon those who delight in Him:Although not expressly stated, I have explained that it is in the same sense as this verse:
John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Thats very funny, considering that the Baptists were persecuted by the Reformed groups!
Now, it is true you do have Calvinist Baptist (hardshell), but what of it? Baptists are a pretty divise group. No different then the Methodists who were originally in two wings , Wesly and Whitefield.
You are NO BAPTIST. Contrary to the claims of post-modernist Clintonist word-parsing, words mean things, and the word "Baptist" means, among other things, Calvinist. Sovereign Grace. Absolute Predestination.
Mega LOL! A baptist is one that is formost against infant baptism (does your church do infant baptism). It is against Church and State combination? Does your church advocate the unity of church and state?
In fact, I just bought a book on the history of the Baptists today at church. Dr. Roy Wallace lists
General Baptists, Seventh-Day Baptists, Freewill Baptists (the name freewill Baptists came from their teaching that every man has a freedom to believe in Jesus Christ)Primitive Baptists (the primitive Baptists hold to an extreme Calvinistic doctrine. Because of their Calvinistic position, they oppose missionary work, Sunday schools, Theological seminaries and other 'human effot' orgainizations, they have been known as 'hardshell', 'old Baptists') Missionary Baptists (sometimes called 'landmark' these deny the universal church theory)So how did 'brother' Calvin handle the Baptists?
Calvin sought by all means at his disposal including the use of civil powers, to persecute, suppress and exterminate the baptists wherever he found them (Jack Hoard, The Baptist, (London, England, Garce Publications, 1986)71, cited in Baptist Church History, by Dr. Roy Wallace, p.111)
Although the Anabaptists had hoped for some relief of their persecutions under John Calvin and his Presbyterian Churches, they were sadly mistaken. The Presbyterian Church, following the example of their Roman mother, was soon in the persecuting business(Ibid,p.110-111)
This is what "Baptist" means. Why do you think that Calvinist Baptists were called "OLD SCHOOL Baptists", and Arminians were called "NEW SCHOOL Baptists"?!
Hey, I see the word Baptist in that 'New School'-how about that!
News Flash, FTD, the terminology itself -- "old-school", "new-school" -- ought to give you a hint. You are NOT a Baptist.
Why can I not be, according to your own definition be a 'new light' Baptist? It is still a Baptist. I guess the Presbyterians do not have any different wings in them-right?
You are an immersionist Romanist -- one who believes in Immersion, but affirms the Romanist Gospel. THIS is the Romanist Gospel: Resistible Grace + Free Will. THIS is the Baptist Gospel: Irresistible Grace creates New Will.
No, that is the Presbyterian view, not all the Baptist views.
You are no "Baptist", but a schismatic Romanist who claims the name of "baptist", and so to the Baptists who are threshing that part of the Lord's vineyard, I will leave you.
And you are 'wise in your own conceits' and know nothing of what you speak! The only 'schismatic Romanist' are those Reformed churches who never really broke away from 'moma'(clinging to their and the father of Romanism, Augustine) and are tripping over themselves to get back under her 'fold' just like many of the Reformed churches are doing, espically in Europe.
The Reformers and the key Anabaptists ardently opposed your semi-Pelagian position. Even Luther himself specifically declared that this controversy--in which you are siding with the Romanists!--was the pivotal issue of the Reformation.
You need to figure out why Luther said that. You need to make sure you are not like so many of today's proud Baptists--who do not clearly know what justifying faith is.
If God did not value Himself above all other things, then He would cease to be God. - CCWoody
And yet God was willing to turn His back on His own Son (who became sin for us) so we might have fellowship with God.
Were God to regard man above His glory, He would be an idolater. - CCWoody
I believe Jesus on the cross chose to regard man above Himself for the ultimate glory of God.
Jon. 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
It would seem that you as well agree that what God did was ultimately for His glory. I will maintain that all of these acts are ultimately for His glory. God is seeking His glory in all that He does. Man benefits from the zeal that God seeks His own glory. If God were to regard anything greater than His name, He would be in idolatry. (P.S. Christ will still be a Servant at the Second Coming and after. He will not give up His glory.)
When the Father looks on the Son, He beholds the brightness of His own glory and the express image of His own person. When God contemplates His own glory in the image of the Son it brings Him great delight (Isaiah 42:1): Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! The very method with which God has chosen to effect salvation is designed to reveal His own Glory in the Person of the Son.
John 17:4-5 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 12:28-28 "Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify Thy name." Then there came a voice from Heaven, saying, "I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN."
God did indeed turn His back upon His Son. He did so ultimately for His own glory. Salvation is not the ultimate end of the Cross Work; it is penultimate to the ultimate goal of His glory.
…God's saving design are penultimate, not ultimate. Redemption, salvation, and restoration are not God's ultimate goal. These He performs for the sake of something greater: namely, the enjoyment He has in glorifying Himself. - John Piper
All the works of God ultimately focus the praises of His redeemed people on the One who is his great delight. God certainly could have fashioned redemption had He so desired so that the Blood of His Son would not have been shed. It would have certainly not had the same impact in the sheer magnitude of the gratitude, awe and wonder that this saint feels when he looks at the cross.
There on a tree hangs the King of Glory, cursed and bleeding for me. As the blood and water pooled after the spear was thrust in, so too the praises of His people are gathered together. He has been given a Name more to be gloried than any other name.
For the joy that was set before Him, Christ endured the cross and has sat down at the right hand of the Father (Hebrews 12:2). We are to look to Him. The Cross of Christ has focused the praises of His redeemed people. Christ has sat down and returned to the glory that He had. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was (John 17:4).
Did you go into one of your trances or something Woody? - fortheDeclaration
In going back over the last thread to find what ftd calls my "lie" I found that he has an amazing ability to mock and mock and mock. Just look at his contribution to this thread. It seems pretty obvious that he is mocking what he has never experienced. Therefore, he is desperately trying to show that intimate encounters with the Lord are nothing more than trances or something.
We also represent something which he does not like in this regard. We say that the Lord will open up the heavens to show the light of His glory to His chosen ones. We talk about the irresistible vision of that glory shining in our lives and giving us a new taste and desire for His glory. So, he must either accept what we say and examine himself or he must seek to destroy us.
It is depravity and a predestination thing.
He absolutely hates the idea that he is utterly helpless and at the mercy of the Lord so he searches the scriptures in a vain attempt to show that Romans 3 really doesn't mean all men and really doesn't apply to him. So, with this in mind, let us look at his posting:
LOL! A bit hypersensitive there aren't you Woody! Still mad because I caught you lying about the 'Greek' on Acts.17:27? - fortheDeclaration
To be quite honest I'm really at a loss as to what this lie on my part really is. So, I searched out my For whom did Christ die thread to see what he means:
Those verses only prove that man doesn't seek God,(therefore God seeks man). However, it doesn't mean that man can't seek God.
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.(Acts.17:27)That is 'plain' scripture also.
Even so come Lord Jesus
95 posted on 1/20/02 9:02 PM Pacific by fortheDeclaration
He really is desperate to make the scriptures say that man really does want to seek God in his Adamic natural state. Just look at his post #85 on this thread which he flatly declares that God breathes a [living] spirit into man when he is born. It really does seem to match quite closely with the Peligan denial of Original Sin.
I'll take the Man I met, thank you.... - CCWoody
Woody- do you think sounding cryptic makes you sound intelligent? I think you are not a Calvinist but a mystic pretending to be a Calvinist because you think they are 'intellectual'. When push comes to shove it is your 'experiences' that come into play, not scriptures.
No doubt but ye are the people and wisdom shall die with you(Job.12:1)
564 posted on 1/22/02 9:12 PM Pacific by fortheDeclaration
Notice the clear pattern. He mocks because he has never met the Lord Jesus. Now, here is the "lie:"
Correct, it just says that God has made it possible (hapily) - fortheDeclaration
Ya' see, this just makes you look desperate. You must take me for some kind of fool to think that you can say that "haply" means possible and that I don't know any better. It does not.
Acts 17:27 does not mean what you want it to mean. It never has and it never ever will. You are so desperate to deny that God is in control that you are just inventing things in the scriptures.
ara {ar'-ah}
probably from 142 (through the idea of drawing a conclusion); part
AV - therefore + 3767 7, so then + 3767 4, now therefore + 3767 1, then + 1065 2, wherefore + 1065 1, haply + 1065 1, not tr 7, misc 7; 51
1) therefore, so then, wherefore
1138 posted on 1/25/02 5:48 PM Pacific by CCWoody
Hapily does not mean possible. Ara does not translate to possible. FortheDeclaration maintains that he obtained the below information from Strongs (which is exactly where I pulled mine), but it really doesn't matter. Possible is not even a definition that he has provided. And perhaps does not mean possible. He continues to pit scripture against scripture and make a mockery out of the Word of God.
(686)prob from 142(through the idea of drawing a conclusion)a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive (as follows) hapily, what manner( of man), no doubt, perhaps, so be, then, therefore, wherefore. often used in connection with other particles...
Now, how do the other versions translate it? The NASB,NIV-perhaps NKJV-hope
Now, you can do what the Tyndale and Geneva do, leave out the particle and just translate it 'That they should seek God if they might feel and find him...' but the particle does mean 'perhaps'.
However, that is not the real problem with the verse for the Calvinist, the real problem is should seek Him, which shows He has made possible
1191 posted on 1/26/02 1:43 AM Pacific by fortheDeclaration
To show just how silly this post of his really is, look at this example: My Caddie is about ready to die permanently. I could not tell you how many times I have had somebody say that I should get a new car. Well, it is rather tough to do when I don't have the cash to go out and buy a new car. I probably should drive my piece of junk to the yard and get a new car, but I simply do not have the cash to make it happen.
FortheDeclaration's problem is not that he is calling me a liar; it is that he simply refuses to examine himself and would rather lash out at us. It is a depravity and a predestination thing, of course. He needs to repent and call upon the name of the Lord.
Looks to me like you're letting the nets down where He tells you to!.
Thanks.
17:27 {That they should seek God} (zetein ton qeon). Infinitive (present active) of purpose again. Seek him, not turn away from him as the nations had done (#Ro 1:18-32). {If haply they might feel after him} (ei ara ge yelafeseian auton). First aorist active (Aeolic form) optative of yelafaw, old verb from yaw, to touch. So used by the Risen Jesus in his challenge to the disciples (#Lu 24:39), by the Apostle John of his personal contact with Jesus (#1Jo 1:1), of the contact with Mount Sinai (#Heb 12:18). Here it pictures the blind groping of the darkened heathen mind after God to "find him" (heuroien, second aorist active optative) whom they had lost. One knows what it is in a darkened room to feel along the walls for the door (#De 28:29; Job 5:14; 12:25; Isa 59:10). Helen Keller, when told of God, said that she knew of him already, groping in the dark after him. The optative here with ei is due to the condition of the fourth class (undetermined, but with vague hope of being determined) with aim also present (Robertson, _Grammar_, p. 1021). Note also ara ge the inferential particle Ara with the delicate intensive particle ge. {Though he is not far from each one of us} (kai ge ou makran apo henos hekastou hemwn huparconta). More exactly with B L (kai ge instead of kaitoi or kaitoi ge), "and yet being not far from each one of us," a direct statement rather than a concessive one. The participle huparconta agrees with auton and the negative ou rather than the usual me with the participle makes an emphatic negative. Note also the intensive particle ge.
17:27 zhtein ton kurion ei ara ge yhlafhseian auton kai euroien kaitoige ou makran apo enos ekastou hmwn uparconta
685 ara ar-ah' probably from 142; properly, prayer (as lifted to Heaven), i.e. (by implication) imprecation:--curse. see GREEK for 142
This verse speaks to God displaying Himself in creation..that even the heathan can see Him in their darkness..(All creation speaks of God)
From the Geneva bible
(p) For as blind men we could not seek out God except by groping, before the true light came and enlightened the world. >
This was a free offer of the gospel to the Greeks. Some like Thomas would poke their fingers in the hole and KNOW others would mock and walk away
IMHO
17:27 {That they should seek God} (zetein ton qeon). Infinitive (present active) of purpose again. Seek him, not turn away from him as the nations had done (#Ro 1:18-32). {If haply they might feel after him} (ei ara ge yelafeseian auton). First aorist active (Aeolic form) optative of yelafaw, old verb from yaw, to touch. So used by the Risen Jesus in his challenge to the disciples (#Lu 24:39), by the Apostle John of his personal contact with Jesus (#1Jo 1:1), of the contact with Mount Sinai (#Heb 12:18). Here it pictures the blind groping of the darkened heathen mind after God to "find him" (heuroien, second aorist active optative) whom they had lost. One knows what it is in a darkened room to feel along the walls for the door (#De 28:29; Job 5:14; 12:25; Isa 59:10). Helen Keller, when told of God, said that she knew of him already, groping in the dark after him. The optative here with ei is due to the condition of the fourth class (undetermined, but with vague hope of being determined) with aim also present (Robertson, _Grammar_, p. 1021). Note also ara ge the inferential particle Ara with the delicate intensive particle ge. {Though he is not far from each one of us} (kai ge ou makran apo henos hekastou hemwn huparconta). More exactly with B L (kai ge instead of kaitoi or kaitoi ge), "and yet being not far from each one of us," a direct statement rather than a concessive one. The participle huparconta agrees with auton and the negative ou rather than the usual me with the participle makes an emphatic negative. Note also the intensive particle ge.
17:27 zhtein ton kurion ei ara ge yhlafhseian auton kai euroien kaitoige ou makran apo enos ekastou hmwn uparconta
685 ara ar-ah' probably from 142; properly, prayer (as lifted to Heaven), i.e. (by implication) imprecation:--curse. see GREEK for 142
This verse speaks to God displaying Himself in creation..that even the heathan can see Him in their darkness..(All creation speaks of God)
From the Geneva bible
(p) For as blind men we could not seek out God except by groping, before the true light came and enlightened the world. >
This was a free offer of the gospel to the Greeks. Some like Thomas would poke their fingers in the hole and KNOW others would mock and walk away
IMHO
It is well with my soul in this regard OP.....I didn't think I would ever say that :>)107 posted on 2/17/02 3:17 PM Pacific by RnMomof7
God bless ya, then, sister, for this is the right place to be. God's creation is His, and He may dispose of it as He sees fit.
Nonetheless, though we, as Calvinists, do affirm that God may dispose of His created Dirt as He sees fit, yet I would affirm to you that I do not misrepresent the Classical Calvinist position in affirming that God has seen fit to apply the Atoning Merit of Christ's Sacrifice to propitiate and expunge the Sin of Adam from all who die in Infancy. I do not tell you this to salve your human conscience (for I beieve that you are content to leave these judgments in the Hands of God, as is right), but only to advise you that the classical Calvinist position is that God has seen fit to propitiate and expunge, by the Merit of Christ, the Sin of Adam from all who die in Infancy.
That is the classical Calvinist position.
That you would leave thse judgments in the Hands of God is the right attitude, but I would tell you nonetheless that many esteemed Calvinists have affirmed that Scripture is not silent on this subject:
As concerns those who die in Infancy, though a Calvinist may admit that God may dispose of ALL His creation as He sees fit, nonetheless we will uphold that the idea that those who die in Infancy should Perish is a Roman Catholic and Petrobrussian "Baptist" idea, and certainly not a Calvinist Baptist or Calvinist Presbyterian idea.
To admit of God's sovereignty over Men is not to deny His pleasure over Babes.
We would not presume to deny His Sovereignty; but, where Scripture warrants, we may of course freely affirm His Mercies.
17:27 {That they should seek God} (zetein ton qeon). Infinitive (present active) of purpose again. Seek him, not turn away from him as the nations had done (#Ro 1:18-32). {If haply they might feel after him} (ei ara ge yelafeseian auton). First aorist active (Aeolic form) optative of yelafaw, old verb from yaw, to touch. So used by the Risen Jesus in his challenge to the disciples (#Lu 24:39), by the Apostle John of his personal contact with Jesus (#1Jo 1:1), of the contact with Mount Sinai (#Heb 12:18). Here it pictures the blind groping of the darkened heathen mind after God to "find him" (heuroien, second aorist active optative) whom they had lost. One knows what it is in a darkened room to feel along the walls for the door (#De 28:29; Job 5:14; 12:25; Isa 59:10). Helen Keller, when told of God, said that she knew of him already, groping in the dark after him. The optative here with ei is due to the condition of the fourth class (undetermined, but with vague hope of being determined) with aim also present (Robertson, _Grammar_, p. 1021). Note also ara ge the inferential particle Ara with the delicate intensive particle ge. {Though he is not far from each one of us} (kai ge ou makran apo henos hekastou hemwn huparconta). More exactly with B L (kai ge instead of kaitoi or kaitoi ge), "and yet being not far from each one of us," a direct statement rather than a concessive one. The participle huparconta agrees with auton and the negative ou rather than the usual me with the participle makes an emphatic negative. Note also the intensive particle ge.
17:27 zhtein ton kurion ei ara ge yhlafhseian auton kai euroien kaitoige ou makran apo enos ekastou hmwn uparconta
685 ara ar-ah' probably from 142; properly, prayer (as lifted to Heaven), i.e. (by implication) imprecation:--curse. see GREEK for 142
This verse speaks to God displaying Himself in creation..that even the heathan can see Him in their darkness..(All creation speaks of God)
From the Geneva bible
(p) For as blind men we could not seek out God except by groping, before the true light came and enlightened the world. >
This was a free offer of the gospel to the Greeks. Some like Thomas would poke their fingers in the hole and KNOW others would mock and walk away
IMHO
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