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To: fortheDeclaration
You are NOT a Baptist. The European AnaBaptists and the English Baptists were Calvinist to the core, throughout the middle ages (in the case of the European AnaBaptists) and from the beginning of their denomination (in the case of the English Baptists). Are you a Baptist according to the expressly-Calvinist creeds of the Baptist Confession of 1644? No? I thought not. Are you a Baptist according to the expressly-Calvinist creeds of the Baptist Confession of 1689? No? I thought not.

Thats very funny, considering that the Baptists were persecuted by the Reformed groups!

Now, it is true you do have Calvinist Baptist (hardshell), but what of it? Baptists are a pretty divise group. No different then the Methodists who were originally in two wings , Wesly and Whitefield.

You are NO BAPTIST. Contrary to the claims of post-modernist Clintonist word-parsing, words mean things, and the word "Baptist" means, among other things, Calvinist. Sovereign Grace. Absolute Predestination.

Mega LOL! A baptist is one that is formost against infant baptism (does your church do infant baptism). It is against Church and State combination? Does your church advocate the unity of church and state?

In fact, I just bought a book on the history of the Baptists today at church. Dr. Roy Wallace lists

General Baptists, Seventh-Day Baptists, Freewill Baptists (the name freewill Baptists came from their teaching that every man has a freedom to believe in Jesus Christ)Primitive Baptists (the primitive Baptists hold to an extreme Calvinistic doctrine. Because of their Calvinistic position, they oppose missionary work, Sunday schools, Theological seminaries and other 'human effot' orgainizations, they have been known as 'hardshell', 'old Baptists') Missionary Baptists (sometimes called 'landmark' these deny the universal church theory)
So how did 'brother' Calvin handle the Baptists?
Calvin sought by all means at his disposal including the use of civil powers, to persecute, suppress and exterminate the baptists wherever he found them (Jack Hoard, The Baptist, (London, England, Garce Publications, 1986)71, cited in Baptist Church History, by Dr. Roy Wallace, p.111)
Although the Anabaptists had hoped for some relief of their persecutions under John Calvin and his Presbyterian Churches, they were sadly mistaken. The Presbyterian Church, following the example of their Roman mother, was soon in the persecuting business(Ibid,p.110-111)

This is what "Baptist" means. Why do you think that Calvinist Baptists were called "OLD SCHOOL Baptists", and Arminians were called "NEW SCHOOL Baptists"?!

Hey, I see the word Baptist in that 'New School'-how about that!

News Flash, FTD, the terminology itself -- "old-school", "new-school" -- ought to give you a hint. You are NOT a Baptist.

Why can I not be, according to your own definition be a 'new light' Baptist? It is still a Baptist. I guess the Presbyterians do not have any different wings in them-right?

You are an immersionist Romanist -- one who believes in Immersion, but affirms the Romanist Gospel. THIS is the Romanist Gospel: Resistible Grace + Free Will. THIS is the Baptist Gospel: Irresistible Grace creates New Will.

No, that is the Presbyterian view, not all the Baptist views.

You are no "Baptist", but a schismatic Romanist who claims the name of "baptist", and so to the Baptists who are threshing that part of the Lord's vineyard, I will leave you.

And you are 'wise in your own conceits' and know nothing of what you speak! The only 'schismatic Romanist' are those Reformed churches who never really broke away from 'moma'(clinging to their and the father of Romanism, Augustine) and are tripping over themselves to get back under her 'fold' just like many of the Reformed churches are doing, espically in Europe.

109 posted on 02/17/2002 2:48:03 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; RnMomof7; Zack Nguyen; JenB; Mahone
You still lose. Your soteriological position is not the historic Baptist position, but the historic Romanist position.

The Reformers and the key Anabaptists ardently opposed your semi-Pelagian position. Even Luther himself specifically declared that this controversy--in which you are siding with the Romanists!--was the pivotal issue of the Reformation.

You need to figure out why Luther said that. You need to make sure you are not like so many of today's proud Baptists--who do not clearly know what justifying faith is.

111 posted on 02/17/2002 3:07:39 PM PST by the_doc
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