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M1911 vs. M9
The Sight M1911-A1 ^
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Posted on 02/12/2002 11:02:45 AM PST by Dawgsquat
M1911vsM9
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In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon. Defenders of the 1911 will vehemently contest these last three perceptions, pointing to the superior trigger and durability of the 1911, and the superior stopping power and inherent accuracy of the .45 ACP cartridge. In terms of safety, three conditions must be met for the cocked and locked 1911 to fire: (1) a firing grip must depress the grip safety; (2) the manual safety must be taken off, and (3) the trigger must be pulled. Nevertheless, it looks scary and the Armed Forces have documented negligent discharges from improperly handled pistols. It could be said that the 1911 fell victim to its own mythology. I grew up hearing the stories of the .45--that it kicked so badly that an inexperienced person couldn't hit a door from twenty feet away with one, that a man, struck anywhere on the body by a .45 round would be knocked down as if hit by a truck, and that you could shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45. (A Zero was downed with a .45 but by a head shot on the pilot by an American aviator parachuting from a bomber. The Zero was trying to strafe the American.) In 1998 The FBI S.W.A.T. team adopted the Springfield 1911A1 as standard issue. Anecdotal evidence out of Desert Storm indicates that the Berettas jammed because of the fine sand in the desert and the Marines broke out the 1911's.
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My Own Opinion: |
The M9, Beretta 92 F, has the smoothest slide and the lightest recoil spring of any major caliber pistol I know of. When you rack the slide of the M9, you can feel the precision and quality of its manufacture. Those bottomless 15-round magazines could prove to be life savers should you decide to shoot it out with the Crips or invade a small foreign country. My wife is of the opinion that the Beretta is the nicest shooting autoloader around. It has a very good trigger for a DA/SA and the long barrel and sight radius give it adequate accuracy. Too bad the 92 F is a 9mm. The 9mm is a reasonable defensive round. It will do its part if you do yours, but of course, the same could be said of a .32 caliber pocket gun. Questions have been raised about the "stopping power" of the 9mm and people whose lives depend on their handguns have been migrating away from the 9mm and toward the .40 S&W and .45 ACP in recent years. If I had to shoot someone and I had one shot to do the job, I'd rather that shot be a 230 grain .45 ACP. My target and competition gun is a Kimber Compact. The question of "inherent accuracy" is the grist of endless debates, but I do believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others. I base this on nothing more than my own experience with shooting them. In my hands, .38 and .45 are more accurate rounds than 9mm and .40 S&W. I shoot .45 with much greater accuracy than I do 9mm, so it is more rewarding for me to shoot .45 for fun and competition. .45 ACP is heavier and more expensive than 9mm, and folks who are particularly recoil sensitive will enjoy the 9mm more than the .45. Last, but not least, 9mm pistols tend to be lighter and more comfortable to carry than 1911s, although some lightweight models of the 1911 are beginning to appear. Did the Armed Forces make a good choice? Well, I hope so. The M1911 isn't the best gun for a beginner. In an absolute sense, the M9 is probably safer at ready than an M1911, although, in the hands of a trained person, the 1911 is perfectly safe. The additional rounds might also be an advantage to the nominally trained soldier or law enforcement officer possessed of marginal marksmanship. Which one do I like the best? The M1911, of course. 
MORE BERETTA 92 LINKS Beretta's Model 92FS Page Beretta Info Page Francesco's Unofficial Beretta Page M9 Manual (PDF) from BiggerHammer |
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This page was last updated on 12/13/01
TOPICS: Editorial; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: banglist
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To: Dawgsquat ; Travis McGee ; Pocat ; AAABEST ; Texasproud
You and I are of the same opinion. My carry through 26 years of EOD work has been a 1911A1. My carry 1911A1 is a springfield armory slide and frame put togeather for me and melted by the late Jim Clark.
My self defense pistol has no sights, no bells and no whistles as I'm not a LEO or serviceman anymore and if I can't run, hide or evade a threat it will IMHO and experience become a fast point and shoot CQB sort of last resort engagement . With the 1911 I am faster and my use of it over the years has made it "memory-matic" for me while under stress load of fear and confusion. My continued weekly practice and competition in IDPA with that single sidearm keeps that memory alive and fuctioning which I hope will be my condition afterwards if I'm ever required to use it in civilian life as a last resort. Lord forbid.....
Ya'll stay safe !
To: wardaddy
I know that it will always fire and in "inside the house" range I'm not likely to miss plus cocking an SA is instinctive for me. People who are very comfortable with an action that requires a little work before using it (e.g. SA revolvers or SA pistols) don't forget to do it because it isn't a conscious action. It is as reflexive as pulling the trigger. People have told me that I sweep the "safety" on SIGs and Glocks when I draw to shoot, and basically any other time I would have swept the safety on a 1911. It is so automatic that I don't even notice it when I do it, and apparently I do it on pistols for which it isn't necessary. I still shoot single action pistols though, so the reflex stays strong.
To: tortoise
Military contract M1911s can't even do 1,000 MRBF with ball ammo. That has not been my experience. Do you have a source for that?
A soldier wants a pistol that goes bang every time, even if it has been dragged through the mud or dropped in the ocean. An M1911 doesn't do this very well.
Yes it does. That was all it was built for--Killing Moros in the inhospitable climate of the Philippines. It excelled at that.
Making patently absurd claims about the 1911 doesn't make the Glock or Sig or HK or Sux2000 or whatever new fad gun the SWAT jock-sniffers are all happy over any better a weapon.
To: wardaddy
Your Blackhawk in .41 or .44? I ask because I just came into possession of a .41 magnum Blackhawk with a four-inch barrel and am contemplating using it at the range as a revenge weapon when the guy in the lane next to me opens up with a #$%$@!! .308...
To: tortoise
People who are very comfortable with an action that requires a little work before using it (e.g. SA revolvers or SA pistols) don't forget to do it because it isn't a conscious action. Dude, when you are 'seeing the elephant' and have to pull one in extremis, just not pissing yourself becomes a very conscious act....
To: Billthedrill
The heck with all this sissy .44 .45 and .41 stuff. Here's what we all need
To: tortoise
I also shoot a lot of cap and ball .44s. I own a stainless ruger which shoots a .457 conical as well as a few other Remington and Colt .44 black powder replicas (I have an old Colt Army original but I don't shoot it...it was a Union pistol...shhhh..don't tell anyone LOL). I keep the Ruger at my office and fire and load it weekly. It's an amazing pistol ...very accurate and reliable...just butter the cylinder and she stays dry and good to go.
I do truly like semis (1911 style firstly) and I'm a better shot with them but the deliberate nature of shooting SAs is good for one's discipline.
regards.
To: tortoise
<> Really? Try beating someone over the head with your high-tech polymer wonder. ;)
To: from occupied ga
Those are great - when you want to defend your mother-in-law from a mugger you just have her stand behind you...
To: Billthedrill
Mine is a .44.....I bought it summer of 1975 while at work on a pipeline job between HS and College. It was already a few years old. I think I paid 75 bucks for it..
Best not to waste ammo on a fellow gun afficianado....we've got bigger fish to fry coming down the pike someday I fear but I understand....I was sighting in my Jaeger .54 last summer and a fellow near me was sighting in his 375 H&H for an African big game hunt....I just watched and waited. The .375 report is rather loud.
To: Eric in the Ozarks
'swhyI.........I like that word :o)
Stay Safe !
To: Billthedrill
Well, you were talking about revenge muzzle blast at the range.
To: Travis McGee
People can learn ANY firearm, but practice is key. If someone isn't willing to shoot enough to be competent with their firearm, then they should put it away, because they simply are not serious about its use. Having one and using one are two different worlds. The best gun? The one you have and know how to use.
Just for curiosity, 20 years ago, how many rounds a month did you fire and did you consider that enough?
To: from occupied ga
Well, you were talking about revenge muzzle blast at the range. Yeppurs, although the other thing is a temptation from time to time...I used to use a ported .38 super my brother built for me for that purpose. The range banned 'em. Rats...
To: Dawgsquat
Mark me down in your book as being a believer in the 1911 .45.
I'm a lousy shot compared to most, but I can still nail a bulls-eye with my Colt .45 at 50 yards.
And there's nothing like the reassurance that the .45 puts into you. It feels solid. The kick from each shot reminds you of its power, and whatever you hit tends to show some pretty large effects at being on the wrong side of it.
To: dax zenos
Take a good look at how small and thin the metal guide rails are on the glock. Also notice that when you want to change the magazine base plate that you squeeze the magazine together to get the base off.Interesting that you say that, because I can't get any of my Glock mags apart that way. The mags will not compress. I guess if I took a pair of channel locks to them I could get them to compress, but not with my hands.
Of course, I'm only 6'2" and 260 pounds. I've been using my hands and hand tools all my adult life to build things. But maybe my hands aren't as strong as the average guy.
To: Billthedrill
Coming next:
"The E-gun"
"You have bang...."
To: glock rocks
P14? 14+1? holy guacamole. that's a fine piece. bet you don't carry that under your t-shirt. Au contraire, mon ami. I live in California. I have the nice, safe, legal 10-round mags. It just wouldn't be safe to carry anything else. < / sarcasm >
And you're right. It's definitely not a concealed carry weapon. But it feels comfortable in my hand.
But seriously folks. . . as good a weapon as it is, I wouldn't give up my Glock for anything.
Another satisfied Glock customer.
To: nunya bidness
Any thoughts on the Glock 21? Got one and absolutely love it.
To: tortoise
" The favored guns for matches are the guns that are well-suited for winning the matches; this says nothing about their suitability for combat. The criteria for a good combat pistol are vastly different than the criteria for a good match pistol. And you see a lot fewer M1911s winning and competing in matches that require that you use a stock weapon.
I disagree with you on a number of points. IDPA is practice for the type of combat that I would be expected to be involved in. I have found that my 1911 is a better suited pistol for what I think would happen on the street. The bells and whistles are where I expect them to be. It may be true that you're seeing different pistols being used and winning in IDPA matches but I did notice that those people are being a little more "gamey" than they should be. I noticed that people who are more interested in winning than practicing are competing with 9MM in exposed holsters. I use a Springfield Ultra-Carry for my concealed and ironically I have to shoot a Commander for IDPA because the ports on the Springfield are illegal. If I have a choice between a 9MM and carrying a .45. I carry the .45. The 1911 has proven itself in every war since WWI. The Berretta had problems with the sand in Desert Storm.
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