M1911 vs. M9

The Sight M1911-A1 ^ | unknown | unattributed

[Dawgsquat]

M1911vsM9

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M1911 vs. M9

In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon.

Defenders of the 1911 will vehemently contest these last three perceptions, pointing to the superior trigger and durability of the 1911, and the superior stopping power and inherent accuracy of the .45 ACP cartridge. In terms of safety, three conditions must be met for the cocked and locked 1911 to fire: (1) a firing grip must depress the grip safety; (2) the manual safety must be taken off, and (3) the trigger must be pulled. Nevertheless, it looks scary and the Armed Forces have documented negligent discharges from improperly handled pistols.

It could be said that the 1911 fell victim to its own mythology. I grew up hearing the stories of the .45--that it kicked so badly that an inexperienced person couldn't hit a door from twenty feet away with one, that a man, struck anywhere on the body by a .45 round would be knocked down as if hit by a truck, and that you could shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45. (A Zero was downed with a .45 but by a head shot on the pilot by an American aviator parachuting from a bomber. The Zero was trying to strafe the American.) In 1998 The FBI S.W.A.T. team adopted the Springfield 1911A1 as standard issue. Anecdotal evidence out of Desert Storm indicates that the Berettas jammed because of the fine sand in the desert and the Marines broke out the 1911's.

My Own Opinion:

The M9, Beretta 92 F, has the smoothest slide and the lightest recoil spring of any major caliber pistol I know of. When you rack the slide of the M9, you can feel the precision and quality of its manufacture. Those bottomless 15-round magazines could prove to be life savers should you decide to shoot it out with the Crips or invade a small foreign country. My wife is of the opinion that the Beretta is the nicest shooting autoloader around. It has a very good trigger for a DA/SA and the long barrel and sight radius give it adequate accuracy.

Too bad the 92 F is a 9mm. The 9mm is a reasonable defensive round. It will do its part if you do yours, but of course, the same could be said of a .32 caliber pocket gun. Questions have been raised about the "stopping power" of the 9mm and people whose lives depend on their handguns have been migrating away from the 9mm and toward the .40 S&W and .45 ACP in recent years. If I had to shoot someone and I had one shot to do the job, I'd rather that shot be a 230 grain .45 ACP.

My target and competition gun is a Kimber Compact. The question of "inherent accuracy" is the grist of endless debates, but I do believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others. I base this on nothing more than my own experience with shooting them. In my hands, .38 and .45 are more accurate rounds than 9mm and .40 S&W. I shoot .45 with much greater accuracy than I do 9mm, so it is more rewarding for me to shoot .45 for fun and competition. .45 ACP is heavier and more expensive than 9mm, and folks who are particularly recoil sensitive will enjoy the 9mm more than the .45. Last, but not least, 9mm pistols tend to be lighter and more comfortable to carry than 1911s, although some lightweight models of the 1911 are beginning to appear.

Did the Armed Forces make a good choice? Well, I hope so. The M1911 isn't the best gun for a beginner. In an absolute sense, the M9 is probably safer at ready than an M1911, although, in the hands of a trained person, the 1911 is perfectly safe. The additional rounds might also be an advantage to the nominally trained soldier or law enforcement officer possessed of marginal marksmanship. Which one do I like the best? The M1911, of course.

 

MORE BERETTA 92 LINKS

Beretta's Model 92FS Page

Beretta Info Page

Francesco's Unofficial Beretta Page

M9 Manual (PDF) from BiggerHammer

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This page was last updated on 12/13/01

[Double Tap]

Here's the story on the Springfield 1911. I got the gun and immediately had problems with reliability. It would choke on hardball. I thought it might need to be broken in, so I put approx. 500 rounds through it and still had the problem.

I sent it back to Springfield and had all sort of problems with them just trying to confirm it was at their facility. They fixed the gun, sent it back to me and it was much better, until it tried to kill me.

I had put 300 rounds through it since receiving it back from SA and went to the range to put 100 more through it. After I shot through a magazine, I was about to put another one in and noticed what I thought was a scratch on the left side of the slide. It turned out to be a crack that extended 40% of the way around the slide, just behind the spring tunnel. A couple more rounds and the back half of the slide could have been in my head.

Got a new gun from SA and it was almost as much of a disaster as the first. Stainless steel that would rust, not 100% reliable and the gun was shooting itself loose as a goose.

The Glock 36 had a few hiccups with extraction at first, but I put a new extractor in and since then I'm at 650 rounds of hardball and reloaded hollowpoints with no problems.

[Tailback]

M-249 is the SAW, it has the same basic gas system as the M-240 but is 5.56mm. The M-240 is in 7.62mm. The SAW is much lighter than the M-60 but I wouldn't trust the 5.56 to go through mud walls or chew up trees like the 7.62 does.

[Double Tap]

Hey Shooter 2.5,

See post 101

[glock rocks]

P14? 14+1? holy guacamole. that's a fine piece. bet you don't carry that under your t-shirt.

[Double Tap]

I trust mine so much that it is what my wife uses for self-defense. She shoots it well and it is as reliable with her as it is with me.

Of course, she had to buy a bigger concealment purse to hide the big gun, but I know it will not let her down.

[glc1173@aol.com]

"I never got the rap that the recoil is a problem with a 1911."

Full-size, steel-frame 1911s are easy for even women to control with 230-gr. ammo. The real problems many women may have with the 1911 are the size of the grip and that grip safety.

FWIW, personally I think that the Browning Hi-Power is the best full-size handgun for security/police/military use. The grip is great - especially for women; there also is no grip safety. It also has a 13-round magazine.

GUN REVIEWS free from ad-money bias - emphasizing woman-friendliness of tested guns!

[nunya bidness]

You are missing a good one.

[tortoise]

The 1911 was and is the finest weapon of personal protection dedicated to WAR

That isn't entirely true, certainly not today. For example, the H&K USP platform was designed specifically as a combat pistol and is very arguably a superior weapon for that role. It is also fantastically accurate in the .45 caliber to boot, and has a single-action "locked-n-cocked" operating mode. It also lacks many of the weaknesses of the M1911 series. I do agree that a number of the European pistols were primarily designed as defensive/police pistols (e.g. Glock), but a few of them were in fact designed to be offensive/military platforms.

ObNote: I do not personally own or use a .45 USP platform in its various incarnations, though I have in the past; I am not stumping because I own one. While I wouldn't choose that platform given a choice, I was merely pointing out that it can essentially do everything the M1911 can, and in most cases a good bit better. Technology marches on.

[Double Tap]

Each to his own. I should have put, In my experience, in my post.

I have had several 1911's and have never had one that would not jam on hollowpoints if you didn't get it throated and polished. But I personally know of several guys that have bought 1911's and never had jams, period. And I know they aren't lying, because I've shot with them quite a bit.

I should also qualify my previous statement by saying that I did own a Colt Delta Elite that was utterly reliable, but it literally shot itself to pieces. The pistol just wasn't design to take the abuse of full power 10mm ammo.

[4CJ]

I carry a M1911A1 .45. I will never buy a 9mm.

[tortoise]

I wouldn't trust the 5.56 to go through mud walls or chew up trees like the 7.62 does.

At one time this was true, especially with the old M193, but in fact the newer M855 5.56 ammo (which most units use these days) will easily out-penetrate the 7.62 ball, particularly through things like masonry, walls, and similar -- its been tested. Caliber does not have much meaningful bearing on penetration capability. (Hence why small bullets like the 6.5mm very successfully harvested thousands of elephants; the popular huge .4xx caliber bullets were heavy and massive, but the 6.5mm generally gave deeper and more reliable penetration which frequently meant the end result was at least as good and sometimes better. Diameter doesn't matter if you don't reach the vital parts.)

[tortoise]

I doubt that a person shot with a .45 or a .40 could tell you the difference.

Yup. The only real substantial ballistic difference is that the .45 is a little bit finicky when it comes to shooting through objects to get to the person (i.e. windshields, car doors, etc) and is more prone to ricocheting rather than penetrating when the angle becomes more oblique. On soft targets it is hell though. The argument for the .40 is that it is far less finicky about punching holes through things and still delivers more energy and nearly as big a hole, making it a bit more general purpose. I wouldn't feel undergunned with either.

[SCARED]

You might also want to ask...of what value is twice the number of rounds in a 9mm if it takes 2 or 3 shots to put someone down???

[SSN558]

"Was thinking of polishing the ramp to see if that helps."

Don't polish the ramp unless you really know what you are doing. That little bump or gap between the ramp and barrel is necessary for proper feeding. Once the ramp is polished back too far on the 1911 the frame is shot, I've heard of gunsmiths that can repair the damage but is sounded like it would be more expensive than buying a new gun. Go to a gunsmith with .45 experience, the feeding problem could be something as simple as an extractor adjustment or feed lip problem with the magazine.

[woollyone]

You make some interesting points about ballistics. With your thoughts in mind, how do you feel a .357 magnum 158 Gr. JHP (rated @ 1450fps from a 4" revolver barrel) fired from a 5" auto (1911 style) would perform, compared to the .40S/W or .45?

I ask, because this is my CCW pistol.

[tortoise]

You might also want to ask...of what value is twice the number of rounds in a 9mm if it takes 2 or 3 shots to put someone down???

Except that in practice the ratio is nowhere near that. We are talking about 1.1-1.2 9mm rounds for every .45 ACP in the real world to drop a bad guy.

[SCARED]

i have 12 handguns, bought 45 as primary and 9m as backup for each member of family. my favorite is my charles daly.

[Shooter 2.5]

I apologize for calling you an idiot. That was uncalled for. I already told you what the other books listed and they say it's a greater than hot load. If you wish to tell someone that you have a load that you like and list it go ahead. You did not do that. You were recommending it for someone else. This is not a gun board. This is a political board with people who are not experienced with working up a load, let alone knowing how to reload. If I recall, there was one poster that owned a 1911 that was built in the '50's. There is no way I would recommend any load for that gun.

[balrog666]

I make those Rugers. I carry a 1911-A1.

Ask for a raise. Tell them I sent you!

[Shooter 2.5]

I saw that post. It's kind of ironic that the one part Springfield is making for the Marines is the slide. He's right about the "stainless" steel too. I took those godawful rubber grips off and there was pitting. My sweat from carrying it against my skin 16 hours a day didn't help any. I still like the piece. I just can't use it in IDPA because the ports don't make it legal.