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Pope John Paul II's World Day of Peace Message
http://www.vatican.va/ ^ | 12.08.01 | Pope John Paul II

Posted on 12/31/2001 5:44:20 PM PST by victim soul

NO PEACE WITHOUT JUSTICE
NO JUSTICE WITHOUT FORGIVENESS

MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL II

FOR THE CELEBRATION OF THE WORLD DAY OF PEACE, 1 JANUARY 2002

1. The World Day of Peace this year is being celebrated in the shadow of the dramatic events of 11 September last. On that day, a terrible crime was committed: in a few brief hours thousands of innocent people of many ethnic backgrounds were slaughtered. Since then, people throughout the world have felt a profound personal vulnerability and a new fear for the future. Addressing this state of mind, the Church testifies to her hope, based on the conviction that evil, the mysterium iniquitatis, does not have the final word in human affairs. The history of salvation, narrated in Sacred Scripture, sheds clear light on the entire history of the world and shows us that human events are always accompanied by the merciful Providence of God, who knows how to touch even the most hardened of hearts and bring good fruits even from what seems utterly barren soil. This is the hope which sustains the Church at the beginning of 2002: that, by the grace of God, a world in which the power of evil seems once again to have taken the upper hand will in fact be transformed into a world in which the noblest aspirations of the human heart will triumph, a world in which true peace will prevail.

Peace: the work of justice and love

2. Recent events, including the terrible killings just mentioned, move me to return to a theme which often stirs in the depths of my heart when I remember the events of history which have marked my life, especially my youth. The enormous suffering of peoples and individuals, even among my own friends and acquaintances, caused by Nazi and Communist totalitarianism, has never been far from my thoughts and prayers. I have often paused to reflect on the persistent question: how do we restore the moral and social order subjected to such horrific violence? My reasoned conviction, confirmed in turn by biblical revelation, is that the shattered order cannot be fully restored except by a response that combines justice with forgiveness. The pillars of true peace are justice and that form of love which is forgiveness.

3. But in the present circumstances, how can we speak of justice and forgiveness as the source and condition of peace? We can and we must, no matter how difficult this may be; a difficulty which often comes from thinking that justice and forgiveness are irreconcilable. But forgiveness is the opposite of resentment and revenge, not of justice. In fact, true peace is “the work of justice” (Is 32:17). As the Second Vatican Council put it, peace is “the fruit of that right ordering of things with which the divine founder has invested human society and which must be actualized by man thirsting for an ever more perfect reign of justice” (Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et Spes, 78). For more than fifteen hundred years, the Catholic Church has repeated the teaching of Saint Augustine of Hippo on this point. He reminds us that the peace which can and must be built in this world is the peace of right order—tranquillitas ordinis, the tranquillity of order (cf. De Civitate Dei, 19,13).

True peace therefore is the fruit of justice, that moral virtue and legal guarantee which ensures full respect for rights and responsibilities, and the just distribution of benefits and burdens. But because human justice is always fragile and imperfect, subject as it is to the limitations and egoism of individuals and groups, it must include and, as it were, be completed by the forgiveness which heals and rebuilds troubled human relations from their foundations. This is true in circumstances great and small, at the personal level or on a wider, even international scale. Forgiveness is in no way opposed to justice, as if to forgive meant to overlook the need to right the wrong done. It is rather the fullness of justice, leading to that tranquillity of order which is much more than a fragile and temporary cessation of hostilities, involving as it does the deepest healing of the wounds which fester in human hearts. Justice and forgiveness are both essential to such healing.

It is these two dimensions of peace that I wish to explore in this message. The World Day of Peace this year offers all humanity, and particularly the leaders of nations, the opportunity to reflect upon the demands of justice and the call to forgiveness in the face of the grave problems which continue to afflict the world, not the least of which is the new level of violence introduced by organized terrorism. The reality of terrorism

4. It is precisely peace born of justice and forgiveness that is under assault today by international terrorism. In recent years, especially since the end of the Cold War, terrorism has developed into a sophisticated network of political, economic and technical collusion which goes beyond national borders to embrace the whole world. Well-organized terrorist groups can count on huge financial resources and develop wide-ranging strategies, striking innocent people who have nothing to do with the aims pursued by the terrorists.

When terrorist organizations use their own followers as weapons to be launched against defenceless and unsuspecting people they show clearly the death-wish that feeds them. Terrorism springs from hatred, and it generates isolation, mistrust and closure. Violence is added to violence in a tragic sequence that exasperates successive generations, each one inheriting the hatred which divided those that went before. Terrorism is built on contempt for human life.

For this reason, not only does it commit intolerable crimes, but because it resorts to terror as a political and military means it is itself a true crime against humanity.

5. There exists therefore a right to defend oneself against terrorism, a right which, as always, must be exercised with respect for moral and legal limits in the choice of ends and means. The guilty must be correctly identified, since criminal culpability is always personal and cannot be extended to the nation, ethnic group or religion to which the terrorists may belong. International cooperation in the fight against terrorist activities must also include a courageous and resolute political, diplomatic and economic commitment to relieving situations of oppression and marginalization which facilitate the designs of terrorists. The recruitment of terrorists in fact is easier in situations where rights are trampled upon and injustices tolerated over a long period of time.

Still, it must be firmly stated that the injustices existing in the world can never be used to excuse acts of terrorism, and it should be noted that the victims of the radical breakdown of order which terrorism seeks to achieve include above all the countless millions of men and women who are least well-positioned to withstand a collapse of international solidarity—namely, the people of the developing world, who already live on a thin margin of survival and who would be most grievously affected by global economic and political chaos. The terrorist claim to be acting on behalf of the poor is a patent falsehood.

You shall not kill in God's name!

6. Those who kill by acts of terrorism actually despair of humanity, of life, of the future. In their view, everything is to be hated and destroyed. Terrorists hold that the truth in which they believe or the suffering that they have undergone are so absolute that their reaction in destroying even innocent lives is justified. Terrorism is often the outcome of that fanatic fundamentalism which springs from the conviction that one's own vision of the truth must be forced upon everyone else. Instead, even when the truth has been reached—and this can happen only in a limited and imperfect way—it can never be imposed. Respect for a person's conscience, where the image of God himself is reflected (cf. Gen 1:26-27), means that we can only propose the truth to others, who are then responsible for accepting it. To try to impose on others by violent means what we consider to be the truth is an offence against human dignity, and ultimately an offence against God whose image that person bears. For this reason, what is usually referred to as fundamentalism is an attitude radically opposed to belief in God. Terrorism exploits not just people, it exploits God: it ends by making him an idol to be used for one's own purposes.

7. Consequently, no religious leader can condone terrorism, and much less preach it. It is a profanation of religion to declare oneself a terrorist in the name of God, to do violence to others in his name. Terrorist violence is a contradiction of faith in God, the Creator of man, who cares for man and loves him. It is altogether contrary to faith in Christ the Lord, who taught his disciples to pray: “Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Mt 6:12).

Following the teaching and example of Jesus, Christians hold that to show mercy is to live out the truth of our lives: we can and must be merciful because mercy has been shown us by a God who is Love (cf. 1 Jn 4:7-12). The God who enters into history to redeem us, and through the dramatic events of Good Friday prepares the victory of Easter Sunday, is a God of mercy and forgiveness (cf. Ps 103:3-4, 10-13). Thus Jesus told those who challenged his dining with sinners: “Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice'. For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners” (Mt 9:13). The followers of Christ, baptized into his redeeming Death and Resurrection, must always be men and women of mercy and forgiveness.

The need for forgiveness

8. But what does forgiveness actually mean? And why should we forgive? A reflection on forgiveness cannot avoid these questions. Returning to what I wrote in my Message for the 1997 World Day of Peace (“Offer Forgiveness and Receive Peace”), I would reaffirm that forgiveness inhabits people's hearts before it becomes a social reality. Only to the degree that an ethics and a culture of forgiveness prevail can we hope for a “politics” of forgiveness, expressed in society's attitudes and laws, so that through them justice takes on a more human character.

Forgiveness is above all a personal choice, a decision of the heart to go against the natural instinct to pay back evil with evil. The measure of such a decision is the love of God who draws us to himself in spite of our sin. It has its perfect exemplar in the forgiveness of Christ, who on the Cross prayed: “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Lk 23:34).

Forgiveness therefore has a divine source and criterion. This does not mean that its significance cannot also be grasped in the light of human reasoning; and this, in the first place, on the basis of what people experience when they do wrong. They experience their human weakness, and they want others to deal leniently with them. Why not therefore do towards others what we want them to do towards us? All human beings cherish the hope of being able to start all over again, and not remain for ever shut up in their own mistakes and guilt. They all want to raise their eyes to the future and to discover new possibilities of trust and commitment.

9. Forgiveness therefore, as a fully human act, is above all a personal initiative. But individuals are essentially social beings, situated within a pattern of relationships through which they express themselves in ways both good and bad. Consequently, society too is absolutely in need of forgiveness. Families, groups, societies, States and the international community itself need forgiveness in order to renew ties that have been sundered, go beyond sterile situations of mutual condemnation and overcome the temptation to discriminate against others without appeal.

The ability to forgive lies at the very basis of the idea of a future society marked by justice and solidarity.

By contrast, the failure to forgive, especially when it serves to prolong conflict, is extremely costly in terms of human development. Resources are used for weapons rather than for development, peace and justice. What sufferings are inflicted on humanity because of the failure to reconcile! What delays in progress because of the failure to forgive! Peace is essential for development, but true peace is made possible only through forgiveness.

Forgiveness, the high road

10. Forgiveness is not a proposal that can be immediately understood or easily accepted; in many ways it is a paradoxical message. Forgiveness in fact always involves an apparent short-term loss for a real long-term gain. Violence is the exact opposite; opting as it does for an apparent short‑term gain, it involves a real and permanent loss. Forgiveness may seem like weakness, but it demands great spiritual strength and moral courage, both in granting it and in accepting it. It may seem in some way to diminish us, but in fact it leads us to a fuller and richer humanity, more radiant with the splendour of the Creator.

My ministry at the service of the Gospel obliges me, and at the same time gives me the strength, to insist upon the necessity of forgiveness. I do so again today in the hope of stirring serious and mature thinking on this theme, with a view to a far-reaching resurgence of the human spirit in individual hearts and in relations between the peoples of the world.

11. Reflecting on forgiveness, our minds turn naturally to certain situations of conflict which endlessly feed deep and divisive hatreds and a seemingly unstoppable sequence of personal and collective tragedies. I refer especially to what is happening in the Holy Land, that blessed place of God's encounter with man, where Jesus, the Prince of Peace, lived, died and rose from the dead.

The present troubled international situation prompts a more intense call to resolve the Arab Israeli conflict, which has now been going on for more than fifty years, with alternate phases of greater or lesser tension. The continuous recourse to acts of terror and war, which aggravate the situation and diminish hope on all sides, must finally give way to a negotiated solution. The rights and demands of each party can be taken into proper account and balanced in an equitable way, if and when there is a will to let justice and reconciliation prevail. Once more I urge the beloved peoples of the Holy Land to work for a new era of mutual respect and constructive accord.

Interreligious understanding and cooperation

12. In this whole effort, religious leaders have a weighty responsibility. The various Christian confessions, as well as the world's great religions, need to work together to eliminate the social and cultural causes of terrorism. They can do this by teaching the greatness and dignity of the human person, and by spreading a clearer sense of the oneness of the human family. This is a specific area of ecumenical and interreligious dialogue and cooperation, a pressing service which religion can offer to world peace.

In particular, I am convinced that Jewish, Christian and Islamic religious leaders must now take the lead in publicly condemning terrorism and in denying terrorists any form of religious or moral legitimacy.

13. In bearing common witness to the truth that the deliberate murder of the innocent is a grave evil always, everywhere, and without exception, the world's religious leaders will help to form the morally sound public opinion that is essential for building an international civil society capable of pursuing the tranquillity of order in justice and freedom.

In undertaking such a commitment, the various religions cannot but pursue the path of forgiveness, which opens the way to mutual understanding, respect and trust. The help that religions can give to peace and against terrorism consists precisely in their teaching forgiveness, for those who forgive and seek forgiveness know that there is a higher Truth, and that by accepting that Truth they can transcend themselves.

Prayer for peace

14. Precisely for this reason, prayer for peace is not an afterthought to the work of peace. It is of the very essence of building the peace of order, justice, and freedom. To pray for peace is to open the human heart to the inroads of God's power to renew all things. With the life-giving force of his grace, God can create openings for peace where only obstacles and closures are apparent; he can strengthen and enlarge the solidarity of the human family in spite of our endless history of division and conflict. To pray for peace is to pray for justice, for a right-ordering of relations within and among nations and peoples. It is to pray for freedom, especially for the religious freedom that is a basic human and civil right of every individual. To pray for peace is to seek God's forgiveness, and to implore the courage to forgive those who have trespassed against us.

For all these reasons I have invited representatives of the world's religions to come to Assisi, the town of Saint Francis, on 24 January 2002, to pray for peace. In doing so we will show that genuine religious belief is an inexhaustible wellspring of mutual respect and harmony among peoples; indeed it is the chief antidote to violence and conflict. At this time of great distress, the human family needs to be reminded of our unfailing reasons for hope. It is precisely this hope that we intend to proclaim in Assisi, asking Almighty God—in the beautiful phrase attributed to Saint Francis himself—to make each of us a channel of his peace.

15. No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness: this is what in this Message I wish to say to believers and unbelievers alike, to all men and women of good will who are concerned for the good of the human family and for its future.

No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness: this is what I wish to say to those responsible for the future of the human community, entreating them to be guided in their weighty and difficult decisions by the light of man's true good, always with a view to the common good.

No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness: I shall not tire of repeating this warning to those who, for one reason or another, nourish feelings of hatred, a desire for revenge or the will to destroy.

On this World Day of Peace, may a more intense prayer rise from the hearts of all believers for the victims of terrorism, for their families so tragically stricken, for all the peoples who continue to be hurt and convulsed by terrorism and war. May the light of our prayer extend even to those who gravely offend God and man by these pitiless acts, that they may look into their hearts, see the evil of what they do, abandon all violent intentions, and seek forgiveness. In these troubled times, may the whole human family find true and lasting peace, born of the marriage of justice and mercy!

From the Vatican, 8 December 2001

JOHN PAUL II


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To: George W. Bush
Well, I'd better pipe down before I get banned.

Just like on the liberal Democrat sites huh??

301 posted on 01/03/2002 3:06:45 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: George W. Bush
Well, I'd better pipe down before I get banned.

Oh, too close to the truth to be funny.

302 posted on 01/03/2002 3:21:45 PM PST by Orual
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To: Jerry_M
What the heck is: "You are no Christian. You're a fraud and a bigot. No true Christian attacks another this way. Shame on you!" if not a "trashing" of my faith.

I didn't trash your faith--I called your lousy behavior on the carpet. You're wrong for coming on this thread and throwing out derogatory language which you know will start a fight. You think I'm a coward? At least I'm honest with myself.

303 posted on 01/03/2002 3:36:12 PM PST by JMJ333
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To: RnMomof7
I didn't ask for anyone to be banned. I simply told the moderator that trashing my faith brings nothing to the debate. He can ask questions all he likes from me--provided he leave the rancor out of it. But he can't bring himself to do so, and I'm not going to let it slide. If I were to do that to you--you'd feel the same way.

Regards. =)

304 posted on 01/03/2002 3:39:10 PM PST by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333; OrthodoxPresbyterian
I guess that it is safe for you to respond to me, now that OrthodoxPresbyterian's eloquent rebuttal of your vicious attacks has been removed from the thread (along with every other post that would show you up as a fraud).

However, recognize that there is coming a day when you will be held accountable for your lies and slanders.

305 posted on 01/03/2002 3:44:24 PM PST by Jerry_M
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To: Jerry_M; orthodoxpresbyterian
Why did you come onto the thread unprovoked and start using phrases like "Orgy and spiritual fornication?" What did we do to deserve that?

And you owe me another apology because you attacked my faith in a cruel way, and I defended it. Now you try and turn the situation around like I caused the problem?

I'll let you have the last word if you want. I really have no more to say to you. I would have answered any question you would have asked--but you'd rather spew anger and mean-ness.

306 posted on 01/03/2002 4:17:07 PM PST by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
I want to say this to you.I did not at any time slander the RC church on this thread. In fact if the trigger happy monitor left those posts in place. there is one saying nice things about the Brown Francian Nuns that taught me..in another I speak of my Catholic husband,a couple kids and granddaughters...I entered the thread when Woody was getting slammed for defending Christ's name against an outrageous slander. I THOUGHT I was having a discussion with one poster that called Woody "sick" in the post where he defended the name of Christ. That SHOULD NOT be a denomination issue.You folks should have been defending it too..not leaving it to a token Protestant. That never was a "doctrinal" "issue

Please do not expect me to except your cry of victim,even if we had been having a hard hitting doctrinal debate. Timothy tells us to be ready with an answer for any man.If your Church is so delicate that its doctrine can not stand up to debate in a forum like this how is it defended anywhere?

You worry about bashing? You should visit the Protestant threads..I have been called a heretic and a spiritual whore and many other things in the heat of debate...we all feel strongly about our faiths and will stand in the fire to defend our docrtine.perhaps this grandma just has thicker sking..but crys of victim are pathetic....what would you do in real persucution..

Now YOUR folks have followed me onto to non religious threads and attacked me there for things I said a year ago..I have been called "crazy .an "old hag "and a "talibornagain" among other things. other "Prodys" as you guys call us have had similar experiences on FR. See there is more anti Protestantism than there is anti Catholicism right now..and you are living proof. You selected me when I never slandered your church...This may get me banned (at your request) but so be it!

BTW Jerry was threatened for quoting scripture....that must fall under the heading of "judgement on this thread

307 posted on 01/03/2002 4:18:02 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
You folks should have been defending it too..not leaving it to a token Protestant. That never was a "doctrinal" "issue

I didn't see it. Sorry.

Now about the victim stuff--I don't ask anything of you except you treat me with a modicum of decency. If Catholics come on your threads and start trashing without debating then why wouldn't you report them? If they have nothing to add to the debate except telling us we're having a spiritual fornication, then what are they doing here? Not once did he try and tackle the content of the post.

I'm sorry, but I don't ever talk to you or any other protestant like what was said to me. I treat people like I want to be treated. What is wrong with that?

308 posted on 01/03/2002 4:28:37 PM PST by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Now about the victim stuff--I don't ask anything of you except you treat me with a modicum of decency. If Catholics come on your threads and start trashing without debating then why wouldn't you report them? If they have nothing to add to the debate except telling us we're having a spiritual fornication, then what are they doing here? Not once did he try and tackle the content of the post.

We are grown ups that believe in free speech and feedom of expression even if the rest of FR has moved into the PC censorship column. We love our faiths and love discussing....come over and debate wear your self out..warning ya might get called a heretic but as my Catholic Grandmother used to say "sticks and stones..." I said NOTHING to you I never posted to you ever untill a few minutes ago I do not believe. When the day comes that the rest of FR is like you most of us will leave..then you can discuss the pope among yourselves as much as you like with great consensus but somehow I think that would be your loss and FR's loss...what good is anthing without a little salt?

309 posted on 01/03/2002 4:41:34 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: JMJ333, Jerry_M, the_doc
Why did you come onto the thread unprovoked and start using phrases like "Orgy and spiritual fornication?" What did we do to deserve that? And you owe me another apology because you attacked my faith in a cruel way, and I defended it. Now you try and turn the situation around like I caused the problem? I'll let you have the last word if you want. I really have no more to say to you. I would have answered any question you would have asked--but you'd rather spew anger and mean-ness.

(sigh). Old college debate skills analyze JMJ333's presentation of the matter....

Ahem -- JMJ#333: While I am willing to charitably allow that you are not employing the above rhetorical device in a deliberately underhanded fashion, I should point out that the rhetorical device you are employing above is designed to "stack the deck" against your opponent's ability to counter with a fair response. On the one hand, you throw down a gauntlet at Jerry's feet, levelling accusations against his position; but then declare that if he responds to your charges, you'll just "let him have the last word" (leaving his answers to your charges unacknowledged) -- a ploy which allows you to leave the discussion having cast yourself in a generous light, while casting Jerry as the spiteful one if he should try to respond to your accusations!!

So, though I am not accusing you of employing this device intentionally, I think if you step back and look at the way you've pre-arranged the roles between yourself and Jerry, you'll recognize that it is a good rhetorical trick.

So, allow me to "un-stack the deck":

SO, the rhetorical deck thus un-stacked, I'll ask your preference:

You've levelled accusations against Jerry; would you like him to respond to your charges, or should he leave your attacks un-responded? What is your preference? Thanks.

310 posted on 01/03/2002 4:50:14 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: RnMomof7
Okay, I'll respect your opinion--but I'll promise you this--I'll never go onto a Calvinist thread and accuse your fellow calvinists of spiritually fornicating. It won't be a hard promise to keep.
311 posted on 01/03/2002 4:50:17 PM PST by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333; Jerry_M; RnMomof7
Post #298! I will explain further if needed, but you have yet to directly address the scriptures and complaint I have laid out so far!

BTW, you simply assume that my comments were directed at the Pope personally and not at the event in general. If you want to maintain that assumption, I can argue Scripturally from that POV as well. Thus far, however, my comments have proceeded from the assumption that the Pope is saved but only acting in a foolish manner.

312 posted on 01/03/2002 4:53:42 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
No---I'll let it rest. But I'll promise you the same thing I promised RnMOMof7---I'll never show up on a thread and start screaming sexual epitaphs at you or your fellow Calvinists. Like I said--I would have answered any question he asked, provided it be without rancor.
313 posted on 01/03/2002 4:54:07 PM PST by JMJ333
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To: CCWoody
No--I never even addressed your questions because I was angry with you for saying things I took personally. All I wanted from you was decency before I began the debate.
314 posted on 01/03/2002 4:58:11 PM PST by JMJ333
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To: RnMomof7
I entered the thread when Woody was getting slammed for defending Christ's name against an outrageous slander. I THOUGHT I was having a discussion with one poster that called Woody "sick" in the post where he defended the name of Christ. That SHOULD NOT be a denomination issue. You folks should have been defending it too..not leaving it to a token Protestant.

Bump! I never called the Protestants until it became apparent that Nobody regarded the Name of God!

315 posted on 01/03/2002 4:58:59 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: JMJ333
Ok folks... This "point/counterpoint" has gone on enough.

Is there anyone here who would like to reasonably discuss the Popes message in it's entirety?

316 posted on 01/03/2002 5:00:09 PM PST by grumpster-dumpster
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To: JMJ333
Not once did he try and tackle the content of the post.

Wrong! I did. You have already read the message #298 which addresses that I was arguing why I used the Biblical language that I did.

317 posted on 01/03/2002 5:03:19 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: JMJ333, CCWoody, RnMomof7, the_doc, Jerry_M, George W. Bush
Okay, I'll respect your opinion--but I'll promise you this--I'll never go onto a Calvinist thread and accuse your fellow calvinists of spiritually fornicating. It won't be a hard promise to keep. 311 posted on 1/3/02 5:50 PM Pacific by JMJ333

Calvinists don't share communion with apostates. As a matter of our Creedal Confessions, Calvinist denominations are prohibited by Covenant from sharing communion with apostates.

So you're not doing us any favors by pledging not to accuse any who identify themselves as "Calvinists" of spiritual fornication if you have a Biblically valid reason to believe that they are so doing. Gosh, if someone calling themselves a "calvinist" were involved in spiritual harlotry, we want you to tell us about it. We have a duty either to reprove and correct them, or, if they be stiff-necked, to "separate ourselves from the unfruitful works of darkness". It's Bible, dude; so as Calvinists, it's our Law, y'know?

Why do you think I am Orthodox Presbyterian and not PC-USA (mainstream presbyterian)?

Balaam was alerted to Error by the mouth of an ass. And I'll be the first to admit that some Roman Catholics do possess more spiritual discernment then your typical ass!! If a thoughtful Roman Catholic had Biblically valid reason to believe that one calling himself "calvinist" were involved in spiritual prostitution, I'd hear the criticism in all charity (God willing).

As an example, you could tell me to my face that you thought that J.I. Packer -- often regarded as one of the more prestigious modern Calvinist divines -- was acting like a spiritual whore in his dealings with ECT, and I would acknowledge the charge and admit that your criticism has some ground.

318 posted on 01/03/2002 5:07:45 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
All I asked is for decency. That was it. You make it clear you have no decency for me. Okay. I got it. Thank you for your time.
319 posted on 01/03/2002 5:14:13 PM PST by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333; OrthodoxPresbyterian
I'll never show up on a thread and start screaming sexual epitaphs at you or your fellow Calvinists.

Sorry, but I and I would think any saint, who trembles at the thought of whoring from God, would want you to point out his dreadful error. And (since I do not go to a Reformed Calvinist church) in my church I would want you to point out such a person so a saint who really does want to love his neighbors as himself would at least be able to warn such a person of the dreadful error in their ways lest they perish.

To refrain from doing so would be very hateful and most un-Christian.

320 posted on 01/03/2002 5:18:33 PM PST by CCWoody
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