Investigators Find Signs Birdstrike May Have Caused Crash of Flight 587

Wall Street Journal ^ | November 13, 2001 | SCOTT MCCARTNEY

[Axion]

Investigators examining one of the separated engines from American Airlines Flight 587 found foreign debris inside, indicating that the engine may have ingested a flock of birds and then caught on fire.

The engine burned internally, people close to the investigation said. But its parts appeared intact, except for the damage from what is known in aviation as ``foreign object debris,'' or ``FOD.'' That would suggest that the engine didn't suffer a catastrophic failure from some mechanical breakdown, but from sucking in birds, these people said.

[mlocher]

...a flock of seagulls...

no, i think it was a flock of red winged black birds

[Nimitz]

I love it. Mil-spec turkey. You are KILLING me! Tears are aflowin'.

[Labyrinthos]

Where was Bill Clinton yesterday? Was he in the country, or did he flee again?

Probably flew the coop.

[anniegetyourgun]

I suppose you're right. I hadn't looked at it as taking their joy away. I'd better back off and leave 'em to their baseless, paranoid, and convoluted theories of who is lying to them today.

[texasbluebell]

But this doesn't explain to me why the vertical stabilizer separated from the plane before the engines did. And why was it in such perfect condition when fished from the water. If an engine had hit it, I would think there would be some visible damage to it. But it looked as if it had sheered off perfectly. Birds?

Last night on Fox, in the 10 est time, there were 2 very interesting guests on. The first was Vernon Gross, former NTSB member, who early in the day had thought that it was an accident, as it was being reported that an engine just fell off, and the plane plummeted. But he was changing his mind as of last night, because of that vertical stabilizer coming off before the engine(s) did.

And the 2nd guest in that segment was Howard Safire, former NYC police commissioner, who said something really interesting to me. He said that flight 587 must not turn into an investigation like TWA 800 had. He said with 800, it boiled down in the end to a political decision about what the outcome of the investigation would be. And that it had been a struggle between the FBI and the NTSB. He didn't say who won, but I'm thinking it was the FBI... (Protecting someone's interests, who happened to be in the WH at that time?)

[FReepaholic]

>>...How can a bird strike knock off wings, engines etc? ...<<

At one time I did high-speed photography of engine tests at GE. During a bird-ingestion that engine will shake, rattle and roll.

In my short tenure at GE, I never saw an enging come apart as a result of a bird ingestion (but that don't mean they won't).

I can envision the engine on the AA plane bouncing and jerking after ingesting a bird or birds and coming off because of a structural problem with the pylon or wing.

[concerned about politics]

The nuclear suitcase thing hasn't worked out too well for them. President Bush's failed war in Afghanistan turned into a route for the good side almost overnight. All the bridges in the west are still standing. Even the Anthrax thing, which held so much promise of the government lying to us all, turned into a fizzle.

I think Bush is running a good war, didn't believe the bridge story, anthrax came from ELF, but the bird thing.....well....this one will take some time to digest. It's still a little too raw.

[anniegetyourgun]

Re: Bush lying: I don't think Bush has had anything to say about this yet. Right now it is the pukes at the NTSB who are doing the "Nothing-to-see-here" shuffle.

Isn't that just a precursor to Bush coming out to lie to the American people pretty soon?

[EggsAckley]

LOOK!!
UP IN THE AIR!
IT'S A BIRD!
IT'S A PLANE!
NO!

IT'S SUPER-SAMA!!

[phasma proeliator]

"Osama's air force"

Now THAT it funny!

[Ditto]

How can a bird strike knock off wings, engines etc? I don't think it was a birdstrike.

Actually, quite easily. A large bird like a Canadian goose being sucked into an engine traveling at 300 MPH can and has caused catostrophic damage in the past. It is a major risk and one of the reasons that airports use measures to keep birds away from the runways.

This being the fall, a flock of geese or other migratory birds could well have crossed the path of that flight.

[fod]

but in a majority of birdstrikes the plane is destroyed.

I have seen three birdstrikes on F/A-18 hornets, and each time, the plane was landed safely. (BTW, I've not heard of a birdstrike related crash in my military career)

It is amazing how much damage a seagull can do, but I really doubt that even a flock of seagulls could make a plane disintegrate in midair.

birds could knock out an engine, but not off, and there is no way they could knock off an entire rudder...

[skateman]

I now call for the banning of all birds. Private ownership of birds must be eliminated. Only the police and crooks can now own birds.

[Greenpointer]

Yes, I said early on yesterday that it could have been caused by birds. The runway 22R goes right over the marshland preserve.

Known problem I think.

A flock of migrating Canadian geese maybe? I think full grown they are around 14 lbs apiece.

[Nimitz]

Hey, Pull this leg, it plays, "Jingle Bells"

[Capt. Tom]

I'm serious when I ask you why don't you believe this? It's happened before.

Years ago while driving home from Northeastern Univ In Boston one night, I drove by the morgue at Boston City Hospital. The ambulances were bringing in the bodies from a jet prop electra that had crashed into Boston Harbor because it ingested a flock of birds.

No doubt it happens. Logan(Boston) has trucks that consistantly drive around the outskirts of the airport and shoot at, and discourage the birds from gathering there.

How anyone can have a solid theory this early on what caused the crash is beyond me. - Tom

[FITZ]

In just 3 minutes after takeoff, many birds were encountered and sucked into the engine and that brought the plane down.

[TADSLOS]

You think Screaming Fist is kidding, but he's not...as funny as it seems, the military categorizes EVERYTHING in their own special way. I can attest to the damage of bird strikes. I have had to set aircraft down on more than one occasion after "kamikaze" attacks from buzzards, pigeons and geese. The damage wasn't pretty, and I was happy to get on the ground intact.

[concerned about politics]

This being the fall, a flock of geese or other migratory birds could well have crossed the path of that flight.

I'm from Upstate, and the geese are long gone.
I've seen sea gulls though. They were begging for french fries at McDonalds.

[bluecollarman]

The possibility also exists that one or both engines had some foreign object or debris deliberately placed in them

I agree, it could be as simple as some kind of F.O.D. duct taped to the intake. That was my first thought also.