The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[malakhi]

angelo, isn't it true that there in the Law there are more Sabbaths then just the sundown Friday to sundown Saturday Sabbath? So if DouglasKC were trying to keep the Sabbath then he would have to keep all those as well?

I think you are referring to other religious holidays such as Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah. They are not referred to as 'sabbaths', but yes, if someone is to follow the Law, then these holidays must be observed as well.

[malakhi]

Oh? Then when do you celebrate it? You're not one of the, "We don't have to obey the Ten Commandments" guys, are you?

I think he is saying that what is done on Sunday is not a Sabbath observance, but something different entirely. See SoothingDave's #4176.

[JHavard]

LOL..oh boy, even simple question can lead to questions. We'll forget about what heaven is for a moment and I'll answer it this way. I believe that I am on the road to salvation. I am in the process of repenting for my transgressions of Gods law and I am earnestly seeking Gods forgiveness through Christ.

Hey Douglas, your statement above recalls Deja vu to me, and for a second there I thought it was from the WWCofG hand book, but I don't mean this to be critical, just an observation.

I know that Herbert used to teach that being "born of God",1 Jn 3:19 and 5:18, proved that one could not be born of God until he was changed to incorruptible at the coming of Christ, have you heard this yet?

[SoothingDave]

Havoc in post 316:

Mary is the mother of the physical form of Jesus. I have not argued that she is not the mother of Jesus. I have made the statement that she is not, as the implication of your statements would infer, the creator of God. And I stated that whether you intend to state her as the creator of God or not. I'm not letting such a blasphemous inferrance hang out there in the wind for others to abuse. If you have a problem with that, tough!

With absolutely no intention of addressing actual Catholic teaching, Havoc objects to "Mother of God" because of the "blasphemous inference" that is hanging there "for others to abuse." This is the basis given for rejecting what the Catholics hold as true. That ignorant people will misunderstand it.

Is this a valid principle that all of you non-Catholics would adhere to? Becky seems to be saying so:

But about the dumbasses listening. Why should we worry about them. Because God loves them just as he loves all of us dumbasses, you included.

I think this means that we should be careful of what we say, lest the ignorant misunderstand us. If this is the case, why, oh why, can I not get the point across that saying we are saved by "faith alone" is at least, if not more, prone to misunderstanding by the ignorant?

Why is only Catholic thought subjected to the "must be simple enough for the mind-numbingly ignorant to not possibly misunderstand"? Why am I called "difficult" when I use this very same, Havoc-inspired "if you have a problem with that, tough!" attitude to your own teachings?

(BTW, I wasn't personally calling any of you ignorant or "dumbass," just making the point about the mentality to whom we apparently must target all of our communication.)

SD

[DouglasKC]

EVERYTHING we do from Baptism to good works is done BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved or stay saved. We do it because of love and gratitude to God for sending his son to take our punishment.

I agree totally...almost, but baptism is a whole nother subject that I don't want to get into right now! I do think that if a Christian is truly saved, they will do Gods will.

[al_c]

What I have a problem with in the Catholic church is that certain sins denote a certain number of prayers, thereby relegating the prayers to rote penance rather than a heartfelt prayer. So if you do this sin, just say 5 Our Fathers and 10 Hail Mary's and it will be forgiven you.

Allow me to clear up a little misconception about penance. It's not the prayers after confession that bring us forgiveness ... it's the entire process of the confession. It's the repentant, humble heart that brings us to forgiveness. It's God's mercy and the blood of Jesus that grants us that forgiveness. The prayers are our way of showing our humility and gratitude for the forgiveness granted to us.

Dave, allend ... do I have this correct, or have I left something out?

[nobdysfool]

Why should my "Truth" be censored because of what dumbasses will think it means?

I could ask the same question of you...Re: your post #4153, and my #4175. I know what you're trying to do, but sometimes it could come off wrong to A new reader, just as you claim others of us posting could be misinterpreted.

And Please, it is not necessary to classify people as "dumbasses", despite what you may think of them. Jesus died for them, too and if He thinks they were worthy of His best, who are you or I to diss them?

[SoothingDave]

The Church, on the authority given it by Christ changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

See the Catechism section I posted. The Sabbath remains the same. The Church supplanted the original Sabbath with the new Lord's Day. Rest and giving praise to God have been transferred to the Eighth Day, but the Sabbath remains Saturday. That is "Sabbath-like" activities have been transferred.

SD

[SoothingDave]

The prayers are our way of showing our humility and gratitude for the forgiveness granted to us.

It's more than that. The forgiveness has already been granted before any penance is undertaken. Penance is for repairing the damage done by sin, which is distinct from forgiveness. Penance is returning the stolen money to the bank.

Without mixing Catholicism with Star Trek too much, penance is for repairing the rift in the temporal existence.

SD

[hopefulpilgrim]

So when that Catholic yesterday took the Lord's name in vain, that means that he warrants death if he does not repent of it, correct?

Any sin warrants death. That is why Christ died. If the catholic we are referring to really belongs to Christ, the wages of his sin have been suffered by the Saviour. If he doesn't belong to Christ (has refused the gift of God, which is Christ Himself), then he perishes in his sin.....even if he had committed only one sin in his entire life...even if he had been an "upright" and "perfect" man his entire life, but rejected the grace of God......even if he had followed all the practices and traditions of the catholic church, but did not subject himself to the righteousness of God, he would die in his sin.

[al_c]

Without mixing Catholicism with Star Trek too much, penance is for repairing the rift in the temporal existence.

Thanks for the extra input. Live long and prosper.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Calling Mary "Mother of God" by itself I have no problem with. Its when the prayer goes on to ask her to "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" is where it gets wierd for me. But we've tossed that around over and over.

[nobdysfool]

Please cite for us the scriptures that indicate that The Law (which includes the Ten Commandments), is binding on Gentiles, and most especially after the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, and His Resurrection.

[SoothingDave]

I know what you're trying to do, but sometimes it could come off wrong to A new reader, just as you claim others of us posting could be misinterpreted.

True. But I am not the one insisting that everything we say has to be on the level of the newcomer.

And Please, it is not necessary to classify people as "dumbasses", despite what you may think of them. Jesus died for them, too and if He thinks they were worthy of His best, who are you or I to diss them?

You're right, I'm sorry. I got tired of writing "ignorant" and reached for a synonym, but it is insulting and I will cease.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I am not picking on you or belittling, but if you agree with everything I said why the "I am on the road to salvation. I am in the process of repentence" Repentence is a life long job, that is never done to perfection by humans. Can you answer the question, If you died tonight would you go to heaven? with a yes answer.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

Calling Mary "Mother of God" by itself I have no problem with. Its when the prayer goes on to ask her to "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" is where it gets wierd for me. But we've tossed that around over and over.

I know it gets weird with the prayer and statues and "May Crowning" and all that. But that is another issue. I am just talking now of those who refuse even the "Mother of God" title.

SD

[malakhi]

Can we agree that if the Ten Commandments apply to gentiles and not just Jews that the Saturday Sabbath should (in theory) be followed?

I would say yes, IF the 10 Commandments applied to gentiles, then that would be the case. Although I do not agree that the first half of this if-then statement is true. We'll see how the Christians answer it.