The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

There are also some scripture references that point to the early church meeting on the first day of the week.

Rom. 14:5-8 tells us that as a chold of God, whether we set one day aside for God or whether we chooose to honor God on every day, God wants our life to be ocmmitted to him totally. It's a heart thing, what day we do it on doesn't matter, as lomg as our heart is right when we do it. But since the bible also tells us not forsakeing assembling together (Heb. 10:25) and churches meet on Sunday, we should go, as long as the truth is being taught where we go:)

Becky

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I pointed out on an earlier thread that the way some people interpret "vain repetition," a person would be allowed to pray the "Our Father" only once in his entire life. One of the posters actually agreed!

The "Our Father", even tho beautiful in its present form, was an explanation to the disciples by Jesus on how to pray. It was never intended for parrots.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Dave, this is vain babblings, and you know it. Your just being difficult, and I'm not talking about explaining the thing on the 10 commandments. You know legitimate questions are not what I was referring to the other day. I think you are just always playing games and trying to catch someone saying something that you can turn around on them such as this) and take it to the extreme just to "make points"

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

No. Scripture doesn't give the interpretation of that. I got it from a theology class.

And that's why I think you got a "loaded" interpretation.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Nice win by the Steelers Dave. I'm kinda hopin' they win now myself. Don't ya think that way alot of people would quit living in the 70's? :-)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You know over a year ago I got into about a 3 week discussion with CGTGOC (remember him) on some article that was posted about something the pope had said, and it was this verse that finally shut him up. But actually I did not post it to shut him up I was just trying to show him his logic was not working:)

Becky

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Vatican II on the Assumption of Mary

Say it aint so Iowegian.

Finally, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, the Immaculate Virgin was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory upon the completion of her earthly sojourn...For, taken up into heaven, she did not lay aside this saving role, but by her manifold acts of intercession continues to win for us gifts of eternal salvation...Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix...As the most holy Mother of God she was, after her Son, exalted by divine grace above all angels and men. Hence the Church appropriately honors her with special reverence...In all perils and needs, the faithful have fled prayerfully to her protection (The Documents of Vatican II (Chicago: Follett, 1966), Walter M. Abbott, S.J., General Editor, pp. 16, 418, 535, 140-141, 542, 154., pp. 90-91, 94).

Ok. What gives?

[nobdysfool]

And I think it perfectly clear he was not talking about someone properly saying the Rosary. He was talking about specific pagan practices he was familiar with but you are not.

Are you for real??? No matter what anyone shows you from scripture, you still want to wiggle out of it and run back to Rome. If Christ Himself came to you while you were saying the Rosary (please show me that one in the Bible), and told you to "Stop saying the same thing over and over again", your reply would be "But Lord, The Church says I should do this".

Jesus: "And I asked you to stop".

RobbyS: "But the Church says I must.."

Jesus: "I heard you the first time.."

RobbyS: "But the Priest said I must do 10 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers.."

Jesus: "Listen to Me, I said don't repeat the same thing over and over.."

RobbyS: "But Lord, Your Church says I must..."

Jesus: "Robby, what part of stop don't you understand? do you know who I am?"

RobbyS: "Of course I do, Lord, but the Church..."

Jesus: "Robby, I said stop. Right now. What is it you want from Me?"

RobbyS: "Forgiveness for my sins, Lord. The Priest said I must do 10 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers after Confession, and then my sins would be forgiven."

Jesus: "Have you asked Me to forgive your sins?"

RobbyS: " uh, no...not directly..."

Jesus: "Why don't you start there...ask Me to forgive you. Go ahead, just ask Me."

RobbyS: "uh, OK...ummm...Lord, please forgive me of my sins.."

Jesus: "Very good. Your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more".

RobbyS: "That 's it? Bam! you're forgiven, no acts of contrition, no indulgences, no acts of penance?"

Jesus: "That's it! None of that other stuff is needed. I Paid the penalty. In Full. For you."

RobbyS: "But Lord, the Church says I have to do this stuff...and they're Your Church, and the Pope is You on earth, and there is all the history and tradition, and they can't be wrong because they're Your true Church, and those Protestant heretics can't be right because they reject the authority of Your Church, and if they're right that means that Your True Church is wrong, and they can't be wrong because I've believed this all my life, and I've put my faith in Your True Church, and I'd die rather than change, and this can't be happening to me, and it can't be this easy because then Your True Church lied, and why would they do that?

Jesus: "Where do I begin....?"

Please note that I intend no disrespect to the Lord Jesus Christ with the above scenario, nor am I trying to put words in His mouth. It is for illustration only!!! I'm merely trying to make a point, and if I have offended anyone in any way by doing this, please accept my humble apologies, and Lord, if I have offended Thee, I ask your forgiveness. Through Christ our Lord, Amen.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Yes we caught it, and I for one will say, He can use it:) (Just kidding, hon). Thanks from him for telling him how to do that, you might be sorry though:)

Becky

[nobdysfool]

Sure but can you succesfully use the Heisenberg Principle to argue your way out of a speeding ticket?

"You see officer, if you accurately measure my speed you can't know where I am; and if you know where I am, you can't know my velocity."

What a great idea! If I ever get stopped for speeding again, I'll try it.

It would be my luck, though, that the Officer would then say, "That might be true if we were just sub-atomic particles, but since the laws of Quantum Physics don't allow for this on a macro-level, I can and have measured your speed accurately, and know just exactly where you are, since I am standing here talking to you. Here's your ticket, have a nice day".

[JHavard]

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death. 108

Of course the main reason the Catholics wanted to leave the Sabbath and find their own day, was to distance them selves from the Jews and because Easter fell on the Passover all to often, they spent years working this out with the calender to avoid it from happening again.

The Pagans worshiped the Sun on Sun day, and Constantine managed to bring them into the fold by promising them certain favors in return for their support, and Dec 25th was one of them also.

All our Christian holidays have a Pagan origin, Christmas, Easter, Halloween.

[SoothingDave]

Your just being difficult,

I am being deliberatly obtuse. On purpose. Yes. Because you guys aruge against the Truths I hold by comparing them to things I do not hold as true. And explain it away by saying that my teachings can be easily misunderstood.

I think saying that we are saved by "faith alone" is very dangerous because it can be misunderstood. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

You know legitimate questions are not what I was referring to the other day.

Ah, yes, "legitimate" questions. To translate that means that what Catholics hold as true can be argued against based on misconceptions, but that I am not allowed to question your beliefs.

I think you are just always playing games and trying to catch someone saying something that you can turn around on them such as this) and take it to the extreme just to "make points"

I am guilty of using various angles to try to make people think about what they are saying, and the implications of it. St. Paul would do whatever it takes to get people to believe and I will do the same. To even begin to get people to step back and analyze what they believe is a start.

SD

[DouglasKC]

You may already know the reputation that this church has and it may not bother you. I don't mean to offend. However, if you are just checking out the church, I don't think this will offend you.

Thanks. I had checked out that link previously. The United Church of God, although it was an offshoot of the Worldwide, is not headed by any one particular person, but rather by a council of 12 elected people. That was one of my concerns that an organization not be a cult of personality.

[SoothingDave]

Jesus: "Listen to Me, I said don't repeat the same thing over and over.."

Here is where you fall overboard. What we have been trying to get you to understand by asking what "vain" means is that Jesus did not say this. This is your interpretation, an interpretation that acts as if the word "vain" were not in the Scripture.

I will read the whole Scripture, and use my intellect to discern that Jesus used the word "vain" to denote a particular type of repetition, not all repetition. The fact that Jesus Himself is shown repeating has no effect on your interpretation. So much for letting Scripture interpret Scripture.

SD

[ksen]

How do you make the connection between the thousand year period in Revelation with the Kingdom verses in Matthew?

The Kingdom of Heaven in the Book of Matthew

Matthew’s gospel opens in verse 1 with, “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David…” This gospel is written with a specifically Jewish audience in mind and what the Holy Spirit is doing through Matthew is showing that Jesus is indeed the prophesied Son of David, the Messiah. That is why there is so much “it is written” and “that it might be fulfilled” in the book of Matthew.

Matthew 3:1-2 says

”In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, and saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

What did John mean by this? He meant that the King[Messiah] was coming, and indeed He did show up to be baptized in Mt 3:13-17.

In the early chapters of Matthew Jesus is going about the countryside preaching that the kingdom was at hand, the Messianic Kingdom. If the Jewish people had accepted what He was offering the Kingdom would have been set up then. However, He was rejected, and so the Messianic Kingdom was put on hold (according to Man’s perspective, not God’s).

As an aside, is there a difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel that we preach today?

In Matthew 13 Jesus speaks in parables concerning the Kingdom of Heaven. According to Scofield and others, these parables are describing the current age that we are in, the Church Age (that is, if you are a dispensationalist). I can see their point and agree with it to a point.

The Parables of Matthew 13

The Parable of the Sower (Mt 13:3-23)

This parable describes the person who enter the Kingdom. There are four classes of people described here. The first is one who hears and doesn’t understand so the Devil snatches the seed away. The second is one who departs because of tribulation and persecution. The third person is one who gets concerned with wordliness. The fourth is one who hears the word, understands, and the seed bears fruit in their life.

I have heard some preachers say that only the fourth person is “saved” and some say that person two and three were “saved” but are carnal christians. However, my point is that only those who have the word will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Parable of the Tares and the Wheat (Mt 13:24-30,36-43)

This parable speaks of a field (the world, v.38) that begins with all good seed (children of the Kingdom, v.38) but eventually tares (children of the wicked one, v.38) are planted by the enemy (the devil, v.39). At the harvest (the end of the world, v.39) the bad and then the good will be gathered up, the bad to be cast into fire and the good to enter the Father’s Kingdom (Kingdom of God), vv.41-43.

This almost directly parallels the description of the Messianic Kingdom given in Revelation chapter 20. In that chapter, the Great Tribulation is over and the Messiah has set up His kingdom. Only the righteous have entered that kingdom and Satan has been bound. At the end of one thousand years Satan will be loosed and will deceive many (plant tares) so that there will be one more final rebellion by man against God.

The Parable of the Mustard Seed

Here the Kingdom is likened to a mustard seed. It starts out small but eventually the Kingdom will grow to fill the whole earth, but eventually, when Satan is loosed, evil will enter the kingdom, symbolized by the birds.

The Parable of the Yeast

Again, the Kingdom begins pure, but is eventually infested with evil (yeast) when Satan is loosed for a season.

The Parable of the Treasure Hid in a Field

The field is the world (13:38) and the man is the Messiah, Jesus (13:37). The treasure is the Messianic Kingdom. Jesus came to earth and revealed the Kingdom, and offered it to the nation Israel. However, the Kingdom was rejected so it was hidden again while Christ continued on His mission to purchase the world.

The Parable of the Goodly Pearl

Here the Kingdom is likened to the Pearl of great price. This is the Church, the bride of Christ, who will have a part in the Messianic Kingdom.

The Parable of the Net

Here a net is described that has gathered up good fish and bad. They will be seperated at the end of the world. The bad will be cast into Hell and the good will continue on into the Kingdom of God.

I hope this answers your question, vmatt.

-ksen

[SoothingDave]

Of course the main reason the Catholics wanted to leave the Sabbath and find their own day, was to distance them selves from the Jews and because Easter fell on the Passover all to often, they spent years working this out with the calender to avoid it from happening again.

Many of the first Christians were Jewish, and when it was still considered a "form" of Judaism they would go to Temple services on Saturday and meet for Christian services on Sunday. Over time the need to sharpen the differences arose and the day of worship was indeed a marked difference. Christ arose on Sunday. Linking this to appeasement of pagans doesn't do justice, unless justice is considered anything that tars the Catholic Church.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

To translate that means that what Catholics hold as true can be argued against based on misconceptions, but that I am not allowed to question your beliefs.

But is what you won't acknowlege is that what you are telling me is a misconception is something I learned in a catholic school, and is also what 100% of the catholics I know also believe. So how do I know for sure who has the misconceptions, you or me. You can question anything you want about my beliefs but If I answer that I don't believe those are areas we should go such as making a statement like "Mary is the mother of God" becasue she is the mother of Jesus, accept my answer. As I have said before somethings we have to take on faith, human logic can't explain it, and I back this up with scripture.

Becky