The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[malakhi]

So? You must have seen what? 10? 20? more? Steeler games in your life and yet you never noticed the "missing" logos on the helmets.

Not even 10. I generally watch the NFC games. The only Steeler game I can remember watching the whole way through was a season-ending game against Green Bay, where Yancey Thigpen dropped a touchdown pass at the end to give the Packers the victory and the NFC Central division title.

[malakhi]

You should have picked a different one. My copy of Scripture has God plucking Elijah up into Heaven.

Enoch too.

[Titanites]

Have you read the short and glorious reign of his predecessor Pope Clement V?

Another in the glorious history of the Popes.

Clement V was his successor to the papacy, not predecessor. I do not want to debate the merits and failings of every Pope. The Popes were and are sinners like the rest of us.

However, if you go back to my post #4056, you'll see that I think some claims have been made against Boniface VIII which may be false. Namely that he practiced sorcery, called Christ a hypocrite, professed atheism, denied life after death, was a murderer and sex pervert, was officially recorded as saying: "To enjoy oneself and lie carnally with woman or with boys is no more a sin than rubbing one's hands together."

There have been bad popes, but that doesn't give anyone the right to make false claims against them (especially from Christians on this thread). All I am looking for is the truth in the matter. If you have a reputable source for the above claims against Boniface VIII, I'd like to see it because everything I can find does not support those claims. Maybe he did these things, I don't know, but anytime someone takes the liberty to soil anothers character, they better be able to back it up.

[JHavard]

You should have picked a different one. My copy of Scripture has God plucking Elijah up into Heaven.

Which heaven? (^g^)

[OLD REGGIE]

Thanks, angelo. I'm sure we aren't reading this right. ;-)

Angelo, while I am not surprised at the SD special brand of "interpretation" I am a little surprised with you.

Matthew 26:

36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsem'ane, and he said to his disciples, "Sit here, while I go yonder and pray."
37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zeb'edee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me."
39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."
40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, "So, could you not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done."
43 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy.
44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words.
------------------------------------------------------------

SD; I don't expect you to get excited over the words "saying the same words". We all know it is not appropriate in this context.

He went away, he returned, he went away, he returned, he went away.

DO YOU STILL THINK THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF "VAIN REPETITION?

[SoothingDave]

SD; I don't expect you to get excited over the words "saying the same words". We all know it is not appropriate in this context.

He went away, he returned, he went away, he returned, he went away.

So its "kosher" to say ten Our Father's as long as we get up and stretch in between? Sort of like a combo of yoga and prayer. I can dig it.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Concerning Pope Bonifaces's predecessor: My error. I meant to say "Celestine V".

Let me remind you, I posted from the Catholic Encyclopedia, hardly a negative source. Did you read that article? It is devastating enough.

You have a right to be insulted by "false" postings. I am sure you realize this goes both ways. If you post "false" information concerning the same Pope you are every bit as guilty as the person you accuse. Maybe it would be worthwhile for you to consider your own sources.

[JHavard]

I'll take number 1 and 2. I think that the word "vain" means something. And that "vain repetition" is not the same thing as "repetition."

Tell me Dave,... what do you think the Pharisees were doing as far as their prayers were concerned that prompted Christ to call it vain and repetitious, can you give an example?

[malakhi]

DO YOU STILL THINK THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF "VAIN REPETITION?

Well, no, I don't think it is VAIN repetition at all. That was my point. The passage clearly states that Jesus prayed again, "saying the same words". The second utterance of the prayer is slightly different from the first, but the third utterance is reported as being "the same words" (presumably as the second utterance). If the words were different, why wouldn't the gospel writer record them as such? If it says "the same words", why not just accept it at face value?

Let me approach this question more generally. Can you only say the Lord's Prayer once in your lifetime? Is there something 'magical' about prayer, that a prayer said the first time is effective, but after that is vain repetition? Must you word your prayers differently every time?

I suggest that "vain repetition" means praying thoughtlessly and inattentively. You can do that even with spontaneous prayer, if you are distracted. Conversely, you can pray a formal prayer from your heart, and even repeat it, and it is not 'vain'. What matters is your heart, not your words.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Notice how she opposes what is "True" with what God wants. Truth is not the enemy of God, reason not that of faith.

Whose slinging mud now? :)

2 Tim. 2:16-18 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker; of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Use "practical application" here. This could be referring to any vain babblings (such as arguing the point of "Mary is the mother of God), even if we IFBB's were to agree with this statement, how does this prove you all's point on worshipping or not worshipping Mary, (useless point, so techneqully vain), but it could lead to the overthrow of the faith of some new Christian just makeing a statement like that.

Becky

[Titanites]

You have a right to be insulted by "false" postings.

Well thanks for granting me that.

I am sure you realize this goes both ways. If you post "false" information concerning the same Pope you are every bit as guilty as the person you accuse. Maybe it would be worthwhile for you to consider your own sources.

Are you claiming my information is false, or are you just arguing? Since I am not the one soiling anothers character here, I don't thnk I'm every bit as guilty. And note that I have NOT accused anybody. Read my posts will ya. I am asking for documentation of the claims made. Do you not read for content?

[SoothingDave]

Tell me Dave,... what do you think the Pharisees were doing as far as their prayers were concerned that prompted Christ to call it vain and repetitious, can you give an example?

The "vain" part I can tell you. It was last Sunday's gospel reading about the guy who prays "O God, I tithe and I fast once a week, thank you for not making me like the rabble or like that scummy tax collector over there" versus the tax collector who prays "Oh God have mercy on me, an unworthy sinner"

SD

[Titanites]

Let me remind you, I posted from the Catholic Encyclopedia, hardly a negative source. Did you read that article? It is devastating enough.

Yes, I read it yesterday. The whole thing, not just your clips. It is not "devastating" at all. Maybe you should read it for content.

[SoothingDave]

but it could lead to the overthrow of the faith of some new Christian just makeing a statement like that.

I agree. We need to teach new Christains carefully. Now Havoc missed the point, maybe you will see it. It is even more dangerous to go around telling folks that they are saved by "faith alone" when it can easily be misunderstood to mean that no obedience or change in life is necessary. If you wish to proscribe the uttering of things which can be misunderstood we would probably stay silent.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

So its "kosher" to say ten Our Father's as long as we get up and stretch in between? Sort of like a combo of yoga and prayer. I can dig it.

You have no idea how difficult it is for me to remain civil when faced with such an asinine remark.

Why don't you read the passage in question. Do you suppose the disciples were woken, spoken to, and all fell back to sleep while Jesus "stretched" while he "went away" and came back.

Don't go out of your way to be an *******!

[Titanites]

Don't go out of your way to be an *******!

I don't think "*******" is an appropriate word to use on this forum. I called Conservative til I die on it, so I should you, too. ;)

[RobbyS]

I can't see how repeating over and over again the Hail Mary or the Our Father is going to really accomplish anything. It would be more likely to put me in a trance, and that I have a real problem with, as I don't believe Christians should put themselves in a trance.

You jump readily from what doesn't work for you to what others should or should not do. Since you are obviously talking about the Rosary, please understand that the person who is saying the rosary is contemplating a specific mystery for each "decade" of beads-The agony in the garden, the scourging at the pillar, etc. Recitation helps us maintain "focus" on scenes associated with the "mysteries." No, the Church does not encourage any trance-inducing exercises such as are associated with TM, for instance.

[SoothingDave]

Why don't you read the passage in question. Do you suppose the disciples were woken, spoken to, and all fell back to sleep while Jesus "stretched" while he "went away" and came back.

The Scripture hints that Jesus was praying for an hour. Do you suppose it took him that long to say one sentence?

SD

[JHavard]

The "vain" part I can tell you. It was last Sunday's gospel reading about the guy who prays "O God, I tithe and I fast once a week, thank you for not making me like the rabble or like that scummy tax collector over there" versus the tax collector who prays "Oh God have mercy on me, an unworthy sinner"

Agreed, that is a good example of a vain prayer, but I doubt he used it repetiously, but if we knew he did the Hail Mary, we would have a good example wouldn't we?

Lol, we would also know we were in a time warp.(^g^)

[OLD REGGIE]

I suggest that "vain repetition" means praying thoughtlessly and inattentively. You can do that even with spontaneous prayer, if you are distracted. Conversely, you can pray a formal prayer from your heart, and even repeat it, and it is not 'vain'. What matters is your heart, not your words.

I apologize, I misinterpreted your post to indicate Christ "repeated" the same prayer repeatedly. Essentially the same as repeating exactly the same prayer, in rapid fashion, 10 or more times. So did SD to his glee.