The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[hopefulpilgrim]

Typical ignorance. I thought you said above you understood Purgatory. It is not a work we do, it is the process whereby the fruits of Christ's sacrifice are applied to us, to purify us. Mull that over. Let the truth sink in. If your cleansing is not finished while you are alive, it will be finished after you die and before you go to Heaven. Jesus paid it ALL.

And what ARE the fruits of Christ's sacrifice which will be applied to you in this fictional world you'll be living in?

[hopefulpilgrim]

I didn't mean to say that "I" would have the power to make me holy, I meant that the power of Christ, working through me will make me actually holy. Does that make a difference?

Yes, it does---but He is already doing that through His Spirit within the child of God: John 15:5; 2 Cor 4;7,10,11; 2 Cor. 12:9; Gal. 2;20; Gal. 4:6; Eph. 2:10; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; Phil.3:9; Phil. 4:13; Col. 1:11; Col. 1:29; Heb, 13: 20-21; 1 Pt. 1:3; Jude 24; 1 Jn 3:3

which is better, to accept a gift which changes your life, which makes you actually innocent, actually pure, actually worthy to stand in God's Presence. Or to be content with being acquitted, being in Heaven with flaws and blemishes, but "let off" because of Christ. I will choose to have my soul actually cleaned, thank you.

From my reading of the scriptures, I would say that neither option is plausible, and you omitted the real option, which is to enter God's presence clothed in the righteousness of Christ---His righteousness is my righteousness because we have been united by baptizm into death...and resurrection.

[hopefulpilgrim]

CAUTION: You are about to enter a no-truth zone.

I also read that the women who took her place says that the nuns in her order already pray to her for spiritual guidance. Is that proper?

It is in fact necessary. If you believe someone is a saint already it is good to pray for their help. Only a tiny fraction of the folks in heaven are listed as "official" saints. Part of the criteria for official sainthood is that the person must acheive two miracles after they are dead. This is accomplished by asking for the person's intercession.

[hopefulpilgrim]

When will it occur to at least one of you folks that Purgatory IS the application of Christ's blood to our souls?

Unbelievable. His blood was applied to my soul when He drew me to Him and I repented. His blood is applied to me continually. Back up your outlandish claims with scripture. Prove it, Dave.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Titanites, Thanks for you concern. The migraine went away last night and I woke up feeling great. Thanks so much for your prayers. hopefulpilgrim

[hopefulpilgrim]

Are you telling me you subscribe to the "God doesn't want us to ask about certain things" school of thought?

Huh?

[hopefulpilgrim]

Those are grrrreat! Thanks, big Mack or Becky.

[OLD REGGIE]

If theosis i.e. deification of the human person was the '"pre-eternal will" of God, which looked towards the Incarnation, it is clear that the "giving" of human nature by the Virgin Mary to the Son and Word of God was the highest goal of the entire Creation.

Read the first WORD

[OLD REGGIE]

The last time I looked, the Scriptures were just marks on paper. For them to have meaning some human eye must read them and sound them out.

And I guess that won't be you.

[DouglasKC]

Most of the ministers from that church, the evangelist anyway, have started their own ministry now, I don't know if you knew any of them or not, but we'll talk this all out later.

No probably not. I've followed what has been going on with the WWCG, but have never been a member. I've been to services twice so far for a local United Church of God.

I'm looking forward to your post, as are the rest of us freepers. Good luck, until tomorrow. By the way, what kind of free hours do you have to be on the threads?

I'm usually on at nights, but I'm also on a lot of days, depending on my schedule. Like today. I'm looking forward to it too. <

[OLD REGGIE]

re. Your post to RobbyS

Add REGGIE 22:29A "And you don't care to."

[DouglasKC]

Since those days, the vast majority of Christians have always met to worship on the Lord's day. They do this in honor of the resurrection of their Savior. Christ was in the tomb during the sabbath, and rose as the firstborn from the dead on the first day. The sabbath signifies the last day of the old creation (Ge. 2:2). Sunday is the first day of the new creation

So If I understand correctly, most Christians have replaced the Sabbath with a "Day of the Lord"?

This brings me to another huge question....aren't we supposed to follow the ten commandments? And if the 10 commandments say that we need to keep a 7th day Sabbath, aren't we disobeying God by not doing it?

[dadwags]

#3986
Most Christians celebrate Sunday because Christ rose from the dead on SUNDAY . The Holy Spirit descended on the apostles on SUNDAY.
Also, in the very early days, Christian Jews used the synagogues , in some places to meet on Sunday.

[OLD REGGIE]

I think it's safe to say that the "all" is implied in Jesus' statement. He explicitly says "do not use vain repetitions". Looking at the context, the exact wording, and an understanding of English grammar, any reasonable person would conclude that Jesus said not to use vain repetitions when you pray. The fact that every translation I could check reads almost exactly the same way indicates to me that the sense of the original Greek was very clear. Therefore, Matthew 6:7 is the definitive answer to his question, and an indictment of the Catholic practice of repeating "Hail Marys" and "Our Fathers" over and over again.

You know it means all. I know it means all. But, does SD know it means all?

[dadwags]

#3981
Where did you find this garbage ?

[DouglasKC]

Most Christians celebrate Sunday because Christ rose from the dead on SUNDAY . The Holy Spirit descended on the apostles on SUNDAY.

Yes, but like I asked in a previous post, does this mean we don't have to follow the 10 commandments?

Also, in the very early days, Christian Jews used the synagogues , in some places to meet on Sunday.

Is this is in the Bible somewhere?

[malakhi]

I wish I knew how to do that.

Graphic images are easier to create than links. Just type it like:

<img src="http://link/url/image.gif">

Make sure you use the "quotation marks" around the image address.

[JohnnyM]

"Yes, but like I asked in a previous post, does this mean we don't have to follow the 10 commandments?"

We must follow the 10 commandments, but it is important to understand the spiritual signifigance of the Law. Christ is not only the fulfillment of Scripture, but also the fulfillment of the Law. The Law in the OT were types and shadows of things to come. They pointed to Christ. The sacrificing at the temple pointed to Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. The feasts pointed to Christ. The distinction of clean and unclean foods pointed to Christ. As Christ says in Mark, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made so that man could rest from work. It was meant as a day of rest. This was the 7th day of the week, as God rested on the 7th day during creation. So the question is, should we still observe the Sabbath? Let's preface this with another question. Should we still make sacrifices to God for our sin?? Should we still abstain from meat of unclean animals?? The answer to these is no, but they are clearly in the Law. The reason the answer is no, is because Christ is the fulfillment of the Law. So in these areas he has completely fulfilled the law as to do away with them. He is the perfect sacrifice, so there is no need to make sacrifices for our sin, because they are covered by the Blood of Christ. We no longer need to abstain from meat of unclean animals, because Christ has made it so there is now no more distinction between Jews and Gentiles. We all can have access to the Father through Him. The Gentiles are no longer unclean, but clean in Christ. The same may be applied to the Sabbath. We are now at rest in Christ. Our Sabbath is in Christ. He is our rest. We observe Sunday as the Lord's Day, but we are now at rest in our Lord.

JM

[OLD REGGIE]

You do know that all the tasteless charges noted above were accusations made by an enemy of his, King Philip IV of France, who was putting illegal levies on the Churches clergy, don't you? He made these charges while Boniface VIII was still alive to dethrone him, and after he was dead to ruin his reputation. However, if you read any reputable historical accounts (at least the ones I could find) you'll discover they are false.

Let's use a few quotes from another source:

Pope Boniface VIII

. . .

On the 13th of December, 1294, the saintly but wholly incompetent hermit-pope Celestine V, who five months previously, as Pietro di Murrhone, had been taken from his obscure mountain cave in the wilds of the Abruzzi and raised to the highest dignity in Christendom, resigned the intolerable burden of the papacy. The act was unprecedented and has been frequently ascribed to the undue influence and pressure of the designing Cardinal Gaetani. . .

The unusual step taken by Celestine V had aroused much opposition, especially among the religious parties in Italy. In the hands of the Spirituals, or Fraticelli, and the Celestines--many of whom were not as guileless as their saintly founder--the former pontiff, if allowed to go free, might prove to be a dangerous instrument for the promotion of a schism in the Church. Boniface VIII, therefore, before leaving Naples, ordered Celestine V to be taken to Rome in the custody of the Abbot of Monte Cassino . On the way thither the saint escaped and returned to his hermitage near Sulmona. Apprehended again, he fled a second time, and after weary weeks of roaming through the woods of Apulia reached the sea and embarked on board a vessel about to sail for Dalmatia. But a storm cast the luckless fugitive ashore at Vieste in the Capitanata, where the authorities recognized and detained him. He was brought before Boniface in his palace at Anagni, kept in custody there for some time, and finally transferred to the strong Castle of Fumone at Ferentino. Here he remained until his death ten months later, 19 May, 1296. The detention of Celestine was a simple measure of prudence for which Boniface VIII deserves no censure; but the rigorous treatment to which the old man of over eighty years was subjected--whoever may have been . . .

Few popes have aroused more diverse and contradictory appreciations. Protestant historians, generally, and even modern Catholic writers, wrote Cardinal Wiseman in 1844, class him among the wicked popes, as an ambitious, haughty, and unrelenting man, deceitful also and treacherous, his whole pontificate one record of evil. To dissipate this grossly exaggerated and even calumnious view, it is well to distinguish his utterances and deeds as pope from his personal character, that even in his lifetime seemed to many unsympathetic. . . .

(Rather lengthy article) Link below:

Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA - POPE BONIFACE VIII

------------------------------------------------------------

Have you read the short and glorious reign of his predecessor Pope Clement V?

Another in the glorious history of the Popes.

[DouglasKC]

Why, then, did Jesus keep the Sabbath? He kept the sabbath for the same reason He kept all the other Mosaic laws. He also observed the feasts. Jesus did these things because He was born a Jew, born under the law, that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from its penalty and bondage (Ga. 4:4; Ro. 9:5).

Hi again. I was doing some more Bible reading and it occurred to me that the only bondage that the Jews were in were because of the the excessive laws added to Gods commandments by the Jews. For example, Jesus apparently had no problem breaking the Sabbath as defined by the Pharisees. In Matthew 12, the disciples are picking grain out of a field and eating it as they pass by. The pharisees notice this and are pissed because they say it violates the Sabbath. Jesus (who is GOD remember) says basically "Bullcrap, that's not what we meant when we said to observe the Sabbath...you guys have added stupid crap to it and are hypocritical to boot."

I was doing some reading and I saw that the Pharisees had added all kinds of restrictive regulations and laws to the Sabbath so that it really was a burden to try and keep it.

Which brings me to another question. If God and Jesus make up the Godhead, and God himself declared that the 7th day is the Lords Day of Rest (Exodus 20:10) then Jesus (who is God) can't be keeping it because he's a Jew, he must be keeping it because he's God and that's Gods day of rest.