The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[Havoc]

Pope Boniface VIII (1302 A.D.)

So, when the Greeks and others say that they were not committed to the care of Peter and his successors, they must confess that they are not of Christ’s sheep, even as the Lord says in John, ‘There is one fold and one shepherd’... Furthermore, that every human creature is subject to the Roman pontiff,—this we declare, say, define, and pronounce to be altogether necessary to salvation (From the Bull Unam Sanctam. Found in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1910), Volume VI, pp. 25-27).

And here's what my information tells us about him:

*Practiced sorcery
*Called Christ a Hypocrite
*Professed atheism
*Denied life after death
*Was a murderer and Sex pervert
*Officially recorded as saying:"To enjoy oneself and lie carnally with woman or with boys is no more a sin than rubbing one's hands together."
*Last thing on the list "Unum Sanctum".

Always interesting to flesh out the people we're considering here as having any authority to speak. I'm sure I'll be screamed at by someone for posting this.

[RobbyS]

Read the first sentence:

If theosis i.e. deification of the human person was the '"pre-eternal will" of God, which looked towards the Incarnation, it is clear that the "giving" of human nature by the Virgin Mary to the Son and Word of God was the highest goal of the entire Creation.

God willed that human nature be made divine. The Son who made all things descended from heaven and was "born of the Virgin Mary"Through her obedience--her "gift"-- the saints who came before and who came afterwards can follow him into the kingdom of heaven,i.e. can become divine--"like gods."

[Havoc]

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216 A.D.)

By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved (From the letter Eius exemplo. Found in Denzinger, p. 166, #423).

He Started the inquisitions (more historical perspective).

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Oh yeah, catholics don't pray to mary, yeah right. :)

They sin by praying to her and then sin again by lying and saying that they don't. The pope prays to Mary and so do Catholics. One of the conditions for obtaining the unbiblical jubilee indulgence is PRAYER TO MARY--

CONDITIONS FOR GAINING THE JUBILEE INDULGENCE: 3) In other ecclesiastical territories, if they make a sacred pilgrimage to the Cathedral Church or to other Churches or places designated by the Ordinary, and there assist devoutly at a liturgical celebration or other pious exercise, such as those mentioned above for the City of Rome; in addition, if they visit, in a group or individually, the Cathedral Church or a Shrine designated by the Ordinary, and there spend some time in pious meditation, ending with the "Our Father", the profession of faith in any approved form, and prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

BigMack

[the808bass]

Otherwise, in my mind, this issue conclusively lands in favor of the short recension.

Don't you have to go with the shorter recension with today's critical methodologies? You really have no other choice. And the fact that the shorter recension explicitly supports transubstantiation and the longer has nada on it means the longer has got to go. :)

[DouglasKC]

Hi all...

As a new believer I am investigating Saturday Sabbath denominations.

As far as I can see, the Saturday Sabbath is the only Sabbath that the Bible sanctions.

Why do so many hold Sunday as the Sabbath?

[Iowegian]

From the Council of Trent Canon III. If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities: let him be anathema.(The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919 ed.)

As Mel Allen used to say: How about that! Obviously it was a knee-jerk reaction by the folks at Trent to the Reformers.

[Pelayo]

There is next to nothing written about her.

What about the Protoevangelium of James(A.D. 120)?

How does Catholicism fill that gap absent anything to support what it says. Where's the scripture to support any of it

First, and most obvious, universal tradition. Second, writings like the one I referenced.

there isn't any and can't be any because it conflicts with scripture and violates God's laws.

Where in the Bible does it say anything not expressly found in Holy Writ is contrary to it?

Why do you seek God in Dead people rather than going to God.

Why do you seek God in a Book? rather than go to him directly?

Has God ever spurned you for approaching Him?

Did God tell you all there is to know of him is in that Book?

Why do you use doctrine as an excuse to break His laws when there is no reason to do so?

Do you eat pig? Do you believe that we have to be circumcised?

[the808bass]

Are you bored? Or just itching for a good fight? :)

[Pelayo]

As Mel Allen used to say: How about that! Obviously it was a knee-jerk reaction by the folks at Trent to the Reformers.

Do you know what "propitiatory" means?

[RobbyS]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia. Please bear in mind this was written before 1909: The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: "Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983). Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go,

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

As Mel Allen used to say: How about that! Obviously it was a knee-jerk reaction by the folks at Trent to the Reformers.

I think they were mad because the dark ages were over. :)

BigMack

[Iowegian]

The propitiatory sacrifice was a one time event, made available for all, not re-played, but remembered in order to keep our eyes fixed upon Jesus - the author and perfector of our faith, by all who take the Lord's Supper until the day we go to be with Him forever.

[RobbyS]

And you ignore the history of the Reformation and with what happened to particular persons, most of whom were ,like Luther, priests in rebellion against higher church authority. Doctrine does not come out of thin air but out of the mouths and from the pens of men and women. Finding no support from popes, councils, doctors or fathers, but only from heretics like Wyclif and Hus, turned to the Scriptures to justify and of course found confirmation, since he--under God-- was the sole authority as to their meaning.

[Iowegian]

I think they were mad because the dark ages were over. :) LOL I like they way you think. Dat's a good juan.

[D-fendr]

Here ya go, if she's still in the mood for shocking belief systems, try this one on your wife:

"Every reference body has its own particular time; unless we are told the reference body to which the statement of time refers, there is no meaning in a statement of the time of an event." [A. Einstein]

Shocking, eh? But it's part of physic's dogma.

You should hear what they teach about matter!

[Iowegian]

And you ignore the history of the Reformation and with what happened to particular persons, most of whom were ,like Luther, priests in rebellion against higher church authority.

The Scriptures were (and still are) in rebellion against those "authorities".

[D-fendr]

Hey, bassman! Here's one for you: "In order to describe the mechanics of the physical universe, three quantitites are required: time, distance, and mass. Which of these quantities are absolute and which vary relative to the others?"

[RobbyS]

If course we pray to Mary. We pray to the saints. We pray to all in the heavenly court that they ask Jesus to help us. Nice to have friends in high places.

[Iowegian]

My wife is only shocked by it because it is a Christian denomination that says it holds the Scriptures in high regard, in fact, claim it to be inerrant (if I'm not mistaken).