The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[D-fendr]

as would lifting a 'graph from quantum physics.

I wouldn't expect much gain from either approach.

Not to mention, shocking yer wife without good reason. :)

[dadwags]

33297
The Assumption of mary
So? what's wrong with that?

[dadwags]

3927
The Assumption of mary
So? what's wrong with that?

[Iowegian]

Here's another of their official beliefs:

Canon V: If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation: let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (New York: Harper, 1877), Decree on Justification, Chapter IV, p. 91; Canons on Baptism II, V; pp. 122-123).

Not surprising, but still amazing.

[OLD REGGIE]

If theosis i.e. deification of the human person was the '"pre-eternal will" of God, which looked towards the Incarnation, it is clear that the "giving" of human nature by the Virgin Mary to the Son and Word of God was the highest goal of the entire Creation. For this reason "all that was before her" are justifiably considered as being directed towards the Virgin Mary, as the "final cause". And precisely because she has such a crucial relationship with all who went before her, she is then the protector "of all who came after her". In this way, the Mother of God is presented as the "key" of all Creation.

What, exactly, does this mean to you?

[Iowegian]

So? what's wrong with that?

I don't even know where to start. Short answer: all of it.

[Iowegian]

Here's another (you may already be familiar with):

Pope Boniface VIII (1302 A.D.)

So, when the Greeks and others say that they were not committed to the care of Peter and his successors, they must confess that they are not of Christ’s sheep, even as the Lord says in John, ‘There is one fold and one shepherd’... Furthermore, that every human creature is subject to the Roman pontiff,—this we declare, say, define, and pronounce to be altogether necessary to salvation (From the Bull Unam Sanctam. Found in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1910), Volume VI, pp. 25-27).

The only part he got right was the "bull" part. That's what it is.

[Conservative til I die]

Eh? What's your beef here?

[OLD REGGIE]

The dogma hasn't changed. Just look up the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia. The official teaching is quite sparse and just the same. But in popular devotion the language was overwrought. and like the "fire-and-brimestone" preachings at Protestant revivals sought to make the idea vivid to the imagination.

I imagine this is just another example of how you sift and sort the writings of the Church Fathers. What you like; stays. If you don't like; they were off their feed that day.

How do you sift it out? Oh! I forgot? The Magic Magisterium!

[Havoc]

You, like Luther, BEGIN with the rejection of the authority of the hierarchy and THEN turn to the Scripture to justify what was for him and all ex-Catholics an act of rebellion and for Protestants in general a basic principle

Standard generic charge. It ignores the fact that protestants and Christians look to teachers and preachers (established in scripture) And to God Himself (established in scripture). Christians take the scriptural approach, ya'll have your own approach that is not in scripture. Who built artificial what? Scripture is our grounding. If it isn't in Scripture or the will of God, we've no reason to cling to it - none. That's where proof and credibility comes in - and where you guys are (not amazingly) bankrupt. No credibility and no proof combined with no scripture makes you an encyclopedia salesman - selling fancy covers that pinch together a huge fiction that you want everyone to pay an eternal price for. Keep it, we got the real thing. God's already proven His word in us. Your encyclopedias weren't included.

[Iowegian]

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216 A.D.)

By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved (From the letter Eius exemplo. Found in Denzinger, p. 166, #423).

Now what could I possibly find objectionable about that?

[OLD REGGIE]

What Church was it?

Christian Church.

[Conservative til I die]

Christian Church.

Funny that this "Christian Church" shared held all these beliefs in common with the Catholic Church.

So, did the Catholic Church somehow break off from this "Christian Church?" If so, when? If so, where did the mother Church disappear to?

[Titanites]

Christian Church.

And this Church was an established physical church with bishops, presbyters, and deacons tasked with the responsibility for teaching and disciplining her members.

[Titanites]

visible is probably a better word than physical

[Iowegian]

If so, when? If so, where did the mother Church disappear to?

There is only one true church made up of all true believers in Jesus Christ, and it never disappeared. It lives now, like it always has- where the Holy Spirit lives - inside those who hear His voice, not in an earthly organization or building.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Well, being a good Christian, I really can't say:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

For, taken up into heaven, she did not lay aside this saving role, but by her manifold acts of intercession continues to win for us gifts of eternal salvation...

Big Mack and Becky: What do you think of this?

Pure false teaching that shows up only in the minds of the catholics.

BigMack

[D-fendr]

You're just still mad that mom always like Tom better…

[Havoc]

He didn't NEED a woman to give birth to Jesus; he could have made him directly from clay like Adam. But He chose not to do it that way.

Yes, he actually did. If you understood why, you wouldn't have such a hard time with other things. Satan used woman to bring man to his knees under his rule. God used woman to allow man to stand up under service to God once more. Mary was a means to an end. But her role ended in giving birth. After that, she could do no more than any other living person can do. Mary is a dead woman who, if she remained in belief to the end, is in heaven now. She was the mother of Jesus and at least 6 other children. There is next to nothing written about her. How does Catholicism fill that gap absent anything to support what it says. Where's the scripture to support any of it - there isn't any and can't be any because it conflicts with scripture and violates God's laws. Why do you seek God in Dead people rather than going to God. Has God ever spurned you for approaching Him? Why then do you break his commandments and Laws when you can go directly to Him? What's the point in it. Jesus' prayer example for us is His teaching in action - going boldly before God and asking for His will to be done. Why do you use doctrine as an excuse to break His laws when there is no reason to do so?