The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[nobdysfool]

And this Church was an established physical church with bishops, presbyters, and deacons tasked with the responsibility for teaching and disciplining her members.

You guys sure do like all that structure...I guess it's like a security blanket; it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.

[D-fendr]

I'd love to claim Dr. Einstein as a fellow church member, however, I think his mom might object…

[D-fendr]

I'm pretty fond of warm, but if you wanna talk really fuzzy, see Drs. Heisenberg and Shrödinger.

Don't know what their church is.

[RobbyS]

vain repetitions when you pray The prayers to pagan gods were(in) vain because those gods could not hear the petitions addressed to them no matter how often they were addressed. But that aside, the common practice of Protestants of using cant phrases and snatches of Scri[ture when they pray extemporaneously is like a Catholic's repeating the Hail Mary and is done for the same reason. Most people are not verbally very inventive.

[nobdysfool]

Big Mack: hehehe....no can do. I reserve the right to keep my brain and use it, thank you!

D-fendr: It was distance that I wasn't sure about...I'm trying to do this without resorting to any reference, to see if I can reason it out, just for fun. Confused by your "yardsticks" clue, though. On the one hand, a yardstick is a standard and static unit of measure of distance (as in from point A to point B). Distance would be a constant in a static universe, but not in an expanding one. And, if you introduce motion into the equation, then distance varies with acceleration, or put another way, the yardstick gets shorter as you go faster. So, maybe I'm no closer to the answer than I was, huh?

[nobdysfool]

I'm pretty fond of warm, but if you wanna talk really fuzzy, see Drs. Heisenberg and Shrödinger

hehehe....fuzzy is as fuzzy does, eh?

[RobbyS]

Structure is necessary to an society, but any First Century person would have regarded radical individualism as very odd. They lived in a patriarchial society that easily accepted diferent levels in society. But so do we. Every company has a hierarchy of power, no matter how democratic their manners may be.

[D-fendr]

"…So, maybe I'm no closer to the answer than I was, huh?

au contraire, my friend nobdy's fool…

"the yardstick gets shorter as you go faster.

AHA! Now, the follow up: As you go faster is your yardstick shorter to you?

You may be on your way to getting Two Right!

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

If your looking for a warm fuzzy feeling, put a peach in the microwave. :)

BigMack

[nobdysfool]

the common practice of Protestants of using cant phrases and snatches of Scri[ture when they pray extemporaneously is like a Catholic's repeating the Hail Mary and is done for the same reason. Most people are not verbally very inventive.

I see your point, but I still don't quite see how you justify the repetition when Jesus specifically said not to. I will agree that many people aren't verbally inventive, but my belief and understanding is that prayer is conversation with God, and being that, should be of a more conversational nature, similar to how we speak with each other (with the proper respect shown to God, of course).

If I need to talk with God about something specific (or even not so specific, as in I don't know quite what to say), I can't see how repeating over and over again the Hail Mary or the Our Father is going to really accomplish anything. It would be more likely to put me in a trance, and that I have a real problem with, as I don't believe Christians should put themselves in a trance. It's quite another thing if God does so, because His protection would be a part of it. Putting oneself in a trance would seem to me to be dangerous, because of the potential for opening oneself to demonic attack, because it is a voluntary lowering of ones mental defenses.

[nobdysfool]

Now, the follow up: As you go faster is your yardstick shorter to you?

No, if I was traveling with it, it would not appear shorter to me. So, you're saying that distance is the constant. OK, I can see that, since the speed of light is a constant, and that is measured in distance. I guess it all depends on the definition of distance. If it is between two points in the universe, it is constant only in a static (non-moving) universe, because in an expanding universe, all points move away from each other. If you use the speed of light as the yardstick, an expanding universe does not affect distance, as it is measured by the distance light travels in one second of time. Getting closer?

[D-fendr]

No, the object twould not be "trance" but also not "confused" or "scattered" or "a thousand thoughts in a long train" either.

Consider this: Focus, awareness, being present, in the present moment, fully.

Now, which direction would you travel starting from your current state of a great many thoughts toward that state? Perhaps, reducing them to one would be a good beginning. And, for some, focusing on a prayer, a word or even less is a skillful way to position one's self. You could also use the prayer as a touchpoint. When you notice your mind has gotten away, has wandered, gently guide it back to the prayer, you have a home spot and a guide to know when your thoughts have wandered. It can help.

Some say prayer can be the subtle intention of the heart. Some say you don't have to always be doing the talking, you can try to just listen.

My mate says "the conversation of the soul is always going on, sometimes we just are able to pay closer attention to it.

Personally, I believe there is no one single always right way to pray; pray however enables you to be more aware of the conversation at the time.

[nobdysfool]

If your looking for a warm fuzzy feeling, put a peach in the microwave. :)

Actually, I can get the same effect if the peach is in Schnapps form, and mixed with a little bit of orange juice...a fuzzy navel...:o)

That way I get it all: something to keep me warm and make me fuzzy, and a navel to contemplate....

[nobdysfool]

Personally, I believe there is no one single always right way to pray; pray however enables you to be more aware of the conversation at the time.

I can accept that. I guess I question what I've seen: people just repeating over and over a Hail Mary or an Our Father...just seems to me like nothing is really getting accomplished. Maybe it's just me. I do agree that prayer sometimes is not talking but listening. My main thing is I want to hear the voice of God, and to know that I've heard it. I don't think it's an unobtainable goal.

[nobdysfool]

Getting late....I'm hitting the snoozer....

[Titanites]

Pope Boniface VIII (1302 A.D.)

And here's what my information tells us about him:

*Practiced sorcery
*Called Christ a Hypocrite
*Professed atheism
*Denied life after death
*Was a murderer and Sex pervert
*Officially recorded as saying:"To enjoy oneself and lie carnally with woman or with boys is no more a sin than rubbing one's hands together."

OK, I'll bite. Please let us know where you are getting all this great and scholarly information. I sincerely hope you rely on a reputable source of history and not a source like www.antichrist.com => Bonfiace VIII.

You do know that all the tasteless charges noted above were accusations made by an enemy of his, King Philip IV of France, who was putting illegal levies on the Churches clergy, don't you? He made these charges while Boniface VIII was still alive to dethrone him, and after he was dead to ruin his reputation. However, if you read any reputable historical accounts (at least the ones I could find) you'll discover they are false.

I look forward to seeing your source.

[Titanites]

And this Church was an established physical church with bishops, presbyters, and deacons tasked with the responsibility for teaching and disciplining her members.

You guys sure do like all that structure...I guess it's like a security blanket; it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.

I sure do. And so did Christ. Read all about it in the Bible.

[D-fendr]

Getting closer?

Yes and no.

if I was traveling with it, it would not appear shorter to me.

Keeeee-rect!

So, you're saying that distance is the constant.

Buzz! Wrong. The yardstick is shorter to someone outside your reference (not sharing your velocity/direction). Now, which length of the yardstick is "true"? The 24 inch one I see you holding while I'm sitting on this rock, or the 36 inch one you see in your hand as you zoom past me? It depends: the "true" distance of the stick is relative to the observer's reference. because in an expanding universe, all points move away from each other.

Oh, it's worse than that. You (and I) are on the surface of a planet rotating at a rate of 1,000 miles/hr, moving 20 miles a second around the sun which is moving 13 miles a second within our local star cluster which is moving within the Milky Way galaxy at 200 mi/sec, and the Milky way is moving - with respect to remote galaxies 100 mi/sec. All of the motions are in different directions.

Now, assume there are yardsticks throughout the universe. Likely not very many that are "objectively" the same length as yours.

If you use the speed of light as the yardstick…

Tis the only one ya got for everybody actually. Which led Herr Einstein to take this thought train in the beginning ( the beginning measuring time from our reference of course…) And that's your next clue.

Distance is relative (just ask any woman). You already said time was relative (but your explanation was off.)

You should have enough clues to get to 2 and-a-half right?

[D-fendr]

"I'm hitting the snoozer...."

Yeah, I think I just put myself to sleep too.

thanks for the chat, sleep well and may God bless you and yours…

[hopefulpilgrim]

You have this exactly backwards, as is usual. The cleansing in Purgatory is entirely due to grace. The suffering which we may feel is a result of the cleansing, not the cause of it. This is how far away we are, in your attempt to make us Pelagian, you see our doctrine backwards.

Dave: I and others have given evidence and support from the scriptures that there are only two options for the "after-life": heaven and hell. There is no mention of purgatory as a place of purification before entering heaven. But you do not DEAL WITH the biblical support we give you. You only reply using human argument and reasoning----"the doctrines and teachings of men." If you aren't going to address the scriptures, I'm through arguing about it with you. If you keep repeating your church's side of it, I will warn others that it is not scriptural; but as far as discussing it with you goes, I won't....not until you deal with the biblical evidence against such a concept. Until then, we're only going in circles.