What does the Bible actually say about being gay?

BBC ^ | October 23, 2003 | BBC

[ejdrapes]

What does the Bible actually say about being gay?

Confused how two groups of church-goers can have such conflicting views about whether it's OK to be gay?

Both sides of the debate about homosexuality in the church, which threatens to split the worldwide Anglican church, hold their views sincerely and after much study. So how can their views be so contradictory?

The Bible makes very few mentions of homosexuality - lesbianism isn't mentioned at all in the Old Testament - and as the examples below show, interpretations of the verses that do exist differ hugely.

Following each of the verses below is a brief illustration of what a hardline pro- and anti-gay position might be. (Most Christians hold views somewhere in between these two stances.)

An illustration of the division can be seen by what either side might say about the friendship in the Old Testament between David and Jonathan. One verse reads: "I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; dear and delightful you were to me; your love for me was wonderful, surpassing the love of women."

PRO-GAY A pro-gay position might be that this is a clear indication that King David had a gay relationship, and to pretend otherwise is naive.

ANTI-GAY An anti-gay opinion might be that the friendship between the two men was exactly that - a very close and loyal allegiance.

Similarly, the tale of Sodom is often debated. In it, Lot has two angels staying in his house. The men of Sodom surrounded the house. "They called to Lot and asked him where the men were who had entered his house that night. 'Bring them out,' they shouted, 'so that we might have intercourse with them.'"

To protect his visitors from an act which Lot describes as "wicked", he offers the crowd his two virgin daughters instead. The crowd are not satisfied and break the door down - the angels then make the intruders blind and Sodom is eventually destroyed by "fire and brimstone".

ANTI-GAY An anti-gay argument might say this story demonstrates the immorality of homosexuality, as has been accepted for generations, hence the term sodomy. Elsewhere in Genesis, God says of the men: "Their sin is very grave." It's an example of behaviour degenerating.

PRO-GAY Of course the men's behaviour was wicked, but it was wicked because it's a tale of sexual assault and rape. When Jesus mentions Sodom, hundreds of years later, it appears to be in a context of a discussion of hospitality, rather than one of sexual morality.

There are several verses in the Bible which are similarly contested - there are however a much smaller number of seemingly clear statements. The most famous of them is probably from Leviticus: "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination."

ANTI-GAY An anti-gay position would be that this line is unambiguous. It is also repeated elsewhere in the book. The speaker of the words is God, so this is an explicit indication that homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes. It was one of the sins that justified God in giving the land of Canaan to the Israelites

PRO-GAY A pro-gay argument might say that other verses in the same book forbid a wide range of sexual activities, including having sex with a woman who is having her period. This is an indication that the passage embodies specific cultural values rather than God's law.

There is some debate about how relevant rules in the Old Testament are to Christians. Some would say they are binding, since Jesus said he did not come to abolish the old laws. Others would say that Jesus set Christians free from the old laws, highlighting instead that people should love God and their neighbour.

Jesus himself says nothing explicitly about homosexuality. There are though two statements by him which have been interpreted as having a bearing on the subject.

"[A] man shall leave his father and mother, and be made one with his wife; and the two shall become one flesh."

ANTI-GAY This indicates Jesus saw heterosexual relations as the proper way of behaving.

PRO-GAY Jesus is actually talking about the sanctity of heterosexual marriage

Later in the same conversation, after Jesus has spoken about divorce, the disciples say to him it is better not to marry at all. Jesus says: "That is something which not everyone can accept, but only those for whom God has appointed it. For while some are incapable of marriage because they were born so, or made so by men, there are others who have themselves renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let those accept it who can."

PRO-GAY This shows that Jesus is more concerned with people looking after their own relationship with God, than with enforcement of rules. The reference to being "born so" indicates that heterosexual marriage is fine for those who are heterosexual, but it's OK to be different. Again and again Jesus reaches out to those on the margins of society, like prostitutes and tax collectors, to include them.

ANTI-GAY Jesus here is actually talking about people who were born incapable of having children, or people who were castrated - not about gays. He is actually saying that marriage and chastity are both within God's purpose. Jesus does appeal to the sinners, but once he has called them, he tells them to go and sin no more.

The letters of St Paul provide the other traditional support for the position that homosexuality is sinful. He writes: "God has given [people who worship false gods] up to shameful passions. Their women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and their men in turn, giving up natural relations with women burn with lust for one another; males behave indecently with males and paid in their own persons the fitting wage of such perversion."

Paul later writes: "Make no mistake: no fornicator or idolator, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion, no thieves or grabbers of drunkards of slanderers or swindlers, will possess the kingdom of God."

PRO-GAY A pro-gay position might be that the word Paul uses for homosexual here could alternatively be translated as "male prostitute". In any case, Paul's writings are clearly of his time, and there are plenty of other verses which people have no difficulty in ignoring - for instance: "a woman brings shame on her head if she prays or prophesies bare-headed; it is as bad as if her head were shaved." This should be viewed like that.

ANTI-GAY Anti-gay argument might say this line is crystal clear in establishing that Christianity and homosexuality are incompatible. Paul is actually quite clearly referring to homosexual behaviour, and includes lesbianism. You can't just pretend that St Paul, who did so much to influence our understanding of Jesus, didn't know what he was talking about. He's clear that homosexuality is an offence against God and against people's own bodies.

Part of the reason the views diverge so much is because Christians think of the Bible differently. Some see it as literally the word of God, divine inspiration which humans should not question. Others see it rather as a book which is a witness to God's message, but one which was written by humans and thus has flaws.

Trying to find common ground between the two positions is no simple matter - one of the reasons that Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, is having such a tricky job keeping everyone on board.

Quotations are taken from the New English Bible.

References are on this page

[John O]

"You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination." Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

PRO-GAY
A pro-gay argument might say that other verses in the same book forbid a wide range of sexual activities, including having sex with a woman who is having her period. This is an indication that the passage embodies specific cultural values rather than God's law.

The penalty for lying with a women during her sickness is somewhat akin to shunning. The rest of the sexual sins, dealing with adultery or perverse acts are punishable by death. (See also 1 Cor 5 where the sinner committing incest is to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that is, shunned.)

Also note that the prohibition against homosexual behavior (and beastiality) is repeated twice (chaps 18 and 20) while the rest are stated just once.

[Xenalyte]

He said the same about eating shrimp.

Well, whadaya expect Him to say? They didn't have cocktail sauce back then.

[Xenalyte]

Why don't we discuss fornicators,slanderers,thieves,adulterers,like we do homosexuals?

Because this isn't a Clinton-bashing thread!

[John O]

"[A] man shall leave his father and mother, and be made one with his wife; and the two shall become one flesh."

Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

(Might as well include the full question)

PRO-GAY
Jesus is actually talking about the sanctity of heterosexual marriage

Why does a man leave his father and mother? Only to join with his wife, because he is male and she is female. (this also supports the discussion on arsenokoites) Notice that he didn't mention anything at all about 'homosexual' marriage. Perhaps because the rest of scripture outlaws it.

(lay up)

[Dustbunny]

Amazing how the 'pro homosexual' will twist every statement made by GOD so it will appear He is not against homosexuality.

No matter how it is whitewashed in an attempt to make it normal, it is clearly an abomination.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out, just common sense and logic.

[mdmathis6]

I hope you know I wasn't extrapolating anything....I've heard that whole passage regarding David and Jonathan being used to justify homosexual behavior...I don't think it does supports homosexuality at all! (Though a careful study of it should prod more Christian men to loosen up with each other and to explore the potential richness of Christian male friendships!)

[Gottwnz]

It's all just sodomites trying to use scripture to justify their sin , they don't want to worship God, they want to worship whats between their legs ,simple as that!

[John O]

"That is something which not everyone can accept, but only those for whom God has appointed it. For while some are incapable of marriage because they were born so, or made so by men, there are others who have themselves renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let those accept it who can."

Matt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

PRO-GAY
This shows that Jesus is more concerned with people looking after their own relationship with God, than with enforcement of rules. The reference to being "born so" indicates that heterosexual marriage is fine for those who are heterosexual, but it's OK to be different. Again and again Jesus reaches out to those on the margins of society, like prostitutes and tax collectors, to include them.

This one is so far out its hard to even understand where they are coming from. Jesus doesn't talk at all about relationships with God. He's talking about marriage and how it is forever except for when one committs adultery. He doesn't state that anyone who is not capable of marriage is ok to practice homosexual behavior.

The thing that is difficult to accept is that it is better to remain single (and thus celebate) and that only those for who it is given can do it. The ability to remain a lifelong celebate is a gift. These eunichs are to devote themselves to the Lord's work more fully as they won't have a wife or family to take up their time. The rest of us are allowed to marry (at no penalty of God's regard to us note).

You can easily infer from this that if you find celibacy too hard for you, you should marry (as Paul states in his letters)

As a good study though lets look at the word eunichs. This is strongs number 2135.

"2135 eunoucov eunouchos yoo-noo’-khos

from eune (a bed) and 2192; TDNT-2:765,277; n m

AV-eunuch 8; 8

1) a bed keeper, bed guard, superintendent of the bedchamber, chamberlain
1a) in the palace of oriental monarchs who support numerous wives the superintendent of the women’s apartment or harem, an office held by eunuchs
1b) an emasculated man, a eunuch
1b1) eunuchs in oriental courts held by other offices of greater, held by the Ethiopian eunuch mentioned in #Ac 8:27-39.
1c) one naturally incapacitated
1c1) for marriage
1c2) begetting children
1d) one who voluntarily abstains from marriage
The first usage in Matt 19:12 is Def 1c. the second is 1b and the last is 1d. three different uses of the same word. But none of them mean arsenokoites.

[John O]

It shows on my screen as "petra"

I have no greek font at all. Company policy I guess. I can't even load one. (which blows my mind as this is an engineering shop)

[John O]

if you could ping the troups back here. I've posted some answers but they may need refining and I can always use improvement.

Thanks

[Buggman]

Thank you for pointing that out. If I may be permitted to cite a non-Biblical source for a moment:

"You're leaving me," she asserted in a flat voice.

"Yes, Bonny Bones, I must ride south like the wind," Fafhrd admitted hurriedly. "A lifelong comrade's in immense peril."

"A man, of course," she divined with the same tonelessness. "Even Ghoulish men save their greatest love for their male swordmates."

"It's a different sort of love," Fafhrd started to argue as he untied the mare from the thorn tree . . .

From The Swords of Lankhmar, by Fritz Leiber.

I suppose that the gay lobby would have us believe that Leiber was actually hinting that Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were secret lovers.

Of course, any attempt to make King David out to be gay ignores the fact that his great weakness as portrayed in the Bible was not for men but for women. He had numerous wives, and the sin that almost brought down his kingdom was his affair with Bathsheba and subsequent murder-by-proxy of her husband.

Oi vey.

[nmh]

Such ridiculous nonsense. God HATES homsexuality. It's VERY clear for those that wish to see.

[r9etb]

This is old and tired, and seems to follow the arguments put forth by Daniel Helminiak.

Olliff and Hodges demolish the "pro-gay" arguments here and here.

These are very long reads, but WELL worth the time.

[eastsider]

Amazing how the 'pro homosexual' will twist every statement made by GOD so it will appear He is not against homosexuality.

Twisting scripture is the father of lies' forte:

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" [Ps91:11-12]

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" [Deut6:16]

[Mt4:5-7]

And all those who likewise twist scripture are the devil's spawn:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. [John 8:44]

[Buggman]

But not Jesus. In fact, He never said a word on the subject. He had plenty to say on divorce, though, and that practice is promoted by the government. Go figure.

I agree with you on divorce, however:

Just how many times did the subject of homosexuality come up with Jesus? How many Jews came up to Him and tried to trap Him into saying that barebacking is okay? None. What Jesus did do is endorse the Torah, which is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality.

[stands2reason]

In New Testament Greek in similar terms. the interpretation in terms of anti-Gay-- or Gay is ethocentric and junk science in other words B.S.

How so? Were there no homosexuals back then or something?

[stands2reason]

I think there were some words "I will spew thee out of my mouth" and it had to do with lukewarm Christians...

[Cyclops08]

"Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinithians 6:9-10

This means an un-repentant, practicing gay will NOT go to heaven. Repentance includes STOPPING the sin. Too bad for the gay bishop who left his wife to live in sin with a man.

The Bible is very clear-homosexuality is not just a sin, but an abomnation to God.

[Kleon]

The translation of arsenokoitai as "homosexual" in this passage is misleading. It's funny that the Bible translation uses "homosexual," because it is never translated that way in any other text.

[Kleon]

I've always wondered why it's not more clear. Is coveting your neighbour's ox a greater sin than homosexuality?