Posted on 09/15/2003 9:33:35 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
And not just saints as persons, but their relics and icons and the like.
We would argue similarly that the linkage between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant is plain - (Rev. 11.19-12.1).
You mean like:
Manna and the Most Blessed Sacrament.
Creation of Adam and the priestly power of forgiving sins.
The Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacrifice of Melchizedek.
12:1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[1] Prove Rev 12:1 is a reference to Mary. Biblical sources please.
[2] Demonstrate the linkage between the ark of Rev 11:19 and the woman of Revelation 12:1. Proximity doesn't equal identity.
I really don't see this. The Bible is all about Christ. But Mary is a living Bible, so to speak. The very thought of her brings to mind Christ, because the only reason she is not just another anonymous woman is the "most beloved Son whom [she] ... conceived ... brought forth, nursed, and most sweetly embraced and held tight" in the words of the prayer in the Roman Missal. Every breath she breathes exudes Christ, every step she takes shows us the way to Christ.
How am I Nestorian?
Not you, Protestantism has an underlying Nestorianism and low Christology. Its manifested by the hesitancy to follow what comes naturally to the followers of Sts. Athanasius and Cyril in heaping praises upon the Ever Virgin Mary.
The typical Nestorian hesitancy is refusing to realize the inadequacy of Christ as a model for humanity for the very reason that He is a divine person, and not a human person. The purpose of the Incarnation was not "conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but ... taking of Manhood into God" (Athanasian Creed). By becoming Incarnate, the Divine Son did away with all of our weaknesses, and united Himself to us, so that we might unite ourselves to Him. Its not just that Christ "did not sin", but He could not sin. This is quite unlike us, but it also perfects us.
In contrast, Blessed Mary, whom Christ perfected, is a perfect model for all humanity. Her perfection is due to the continuous prayers God inspired her to say, even from a most tender age, for which she merited to become the Mother of God. God's grace is available to all who would use it wisely, and wanting to none but those who reject it. If we follow the trail blazed by Mary, we too can be perfected in Christ. The most perfect way of doing this is to praise her and beg her assistance in attaching ourselves to Christ.
When we ask her to "save us", we are asking her to attach us to her Son. When we say "you are our Hope", we are admitting we are wholly inadequate for the task at hand ourselves, and require her steady maternal hand to set us on the straight way to God. We hope that she may pray for us continually and at all times to win us abundant grace to see us through the task at hand of overcoming sin, and unite us with Jesus.
My only objetion to the term "Mother of God" is that it CAN be misunderstood, not that it is untrue. Mary is the mother of Jesus, Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of God.
How can "Mother of God" possibly be misunderstood? God is ineffable and unchangeable - its hardly as though He can be "born", as though Mary "created" Him.
The meaning is obvious and Christological - Mary is the human mother of the second hypostasis of the Holy Trinity - the Divine Word, the Son of God.
And while as God, Jesus is outside of law, but as Man, He is obedient to it. The 4th Commandment is "Honor thy Father and Mother". The man Jesus did this by granting His Mother the greatest gifts His Divinity could give - fulfilling in Blessed Mary all perfection of grace and conquering of sin, assuming her bodily into heaven, and enthroning her at His right hand. From these gifts flow all the blessings she has received.
I mentioned nothing about the term "Mother of God." The phrases I underlined all required explanation of how they don't say what they seem to say on the surface. They all are better and rightly said about Jesus.
But anything said about Mary is said about Jesus. That's what we've been trying to explain. They are inextricably intwined. You are seperating them just as Nestorius did. On the one hand - the Divine Son. On the other hand, the human Mary. But they are one in the Incarnation, because Jesus took flesh and humanity from the Blessed Virgin. To praise Mary is to praise Jesus. To be ravished by her beauty is to be in awe of her Creator Who thus made her.
There is nothing fuzzy or imprecise about this belief. On the contrary, its very precise and definite.
We do this by begging her to perfect our prayers to Christ. She can teach us the prefect love of Him. There is no worthier way of praying to Him than to conclude the prayers by praying to her.
When such questions come up, I find that it is not too difficult to find the answers. Indeed, the search for the answer usually takes me on a very instructive journey through Holy Scripture and Tradition!
1 How can "Mother of God" possibly be misunderstood?
I'm beginning to understand why the early Christians would not allow catechumens to witness the Eucharist or even hear the Nicene Creed!
Especially the later.
Goodness! Does this mean you find some value in Holy Tradition?!!!
Rev. 12.5. "And she brought forth a male child, who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron." Mary brought for Jesus (Luke 2.6-21). Of Whom, we read "I will give Thee the nations for Thy inheritance, and the utmost parts of the earth for Thy possession. Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron ..." (Psalm 2.7-8)
How can this be any person but Mary?
[2] Demonstrate the linkage between the ark of Rev 11:19 and the woman of Revelation 12:1. Proximity doesn't equal identity.
We have established above the woman is Mary.
The Ark of the Covenant is not Christ. Psalm 131.8 says: "Arise, O Lord, into Thy resting place: Thou and the ark which Thou hast made of incorruptible wood."
The Ark of the Covenant contained the law of the old covenant given on Sinai, but Jesus Himself is the law of the new covenant (2 Cor. 3.2-18). Where before we had the Law, now we have Grace, the Life of God, Christ.
2 Corinthians 3.2 You are our epistle, written in our hearts, which is known and read by all men:
3 Being manifested, that you are the epistle of Christ, ministered by us, and written: not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God: not in tables of stone but in the fleshly tables of the heart.
4 And such confidence we have, through Christ, towards God.
5 Not that we are sufficient to think any thing of ourselves, as of ourselves: but our sufficiency is from God.
6 Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter but in the spirit. For the letter killeth: but the spirit quickeneth.
7 Now if the ministration of death, engraven with letters upon stones, was glorious (so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses, for the glory of his countenance), which is made void:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather in glory?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more the ministration of justice aboundeth in glory.
10 For even that which was glorious in this part was not glorified by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is in glory.
12 Having therefore such hope, we use much confidence.
13 And not as Moses put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel might not steadfastly look on the face of that which is made void.
14 But their senses were made dull. For, until this present day, the selfsame veil, in the reading of the old testament, remaineth not taken away (because in Christ it is made void).
15 But even until this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16 But when they shall be converted to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Just as the Ark of the Covenant contained the Old Law, so Mary contained Jesus.
Because the Mary and the Ark are linked in typology, and the woman is shown to be Mary, their proximity in the narrative is linked, and is not accidental.
Explain how this relates to Mary as the ark.
It doesn't directly - you are taking the typology too literally. Golgatha is where the blood of Christ was sprinkled, but it is hardly a type of the Ark, but rather a relation to Abel's sacrifice (Hebrews 12.24), and a show that Christ died for all men, because He died outside the Holy City.
Indirectly, the blood is sprinkled on all Christians through the reception of Baptism and especially the Eucharist. Anything done for all Christians is done preeminently in Blessed Mary. Just as in the Old Testament, the blood was primarily sprinkled on the Mercy Seat, but secondarily on all the people (Hebrews 9.19-22).
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