The Rosary and Orthodoxy

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[Hermann the Cherusker]

No Catholic or Orthodox "believes in" or "has faith in" Blessed Mary. She is human. Jesus is God.

[Pyro7480]

The Resurrection and Assumption are not opposed to each other, but joined together.

This is how many Catholic apologists have described the Protestant view of Mary - that they see every thing ascribed to Mary traditionally as being "opposed" to the redemptive work of Jesus. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mary said, "Ecce ancilla Domini" - "I am the handmaid of the Lord." Because of her yes, she participated in Jesus' redemptive work. She was chosen by the Lord, but her free will wasn't denied. She could have said no, but since she said yes, she is the highest of God's creatures, more glorious than even the Cherubim.

[drstevej]

***I really don't see it that way at all. You are equating Jesus and Mary in a way that is quite foreign to Catholics (and Orthodox).***

Interesting. My point is, "You are equating Jesus and Mary (through terms and ascriptions) in a way that is quite foreign to the Bible."

***Your objections are the Nestorianism that underlies Protestantism coming to the surface.***

How am I Nestorian? My only objetion to the term "Mother of God" is that it CAN be misunderstood, not that it is untrue. Mary is the mother of Jesus, Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of God. I have no problem with that unless inferences are drawn from the title that are unbiblical.

Here is the line in the prayer I originally objected to: "***Open unto us the door of thy loving-kindness, O blessed Mother of God, in that we set our hope on thee, may we not go astray; but through thee may we be delivered from all adversities, for thou art the salvation of all Christian people.***

I mentioned nothing about the term "Mother of God." The phrases I underlined all required explanation of how they don't say what they seem to say on the surface. They all are better and rightly said about Jesus.

Give me the primary and I'll leave the secondary for others.

[drstevej]

***we set our hope on thee***

Mary or Jesus or both? The prayer says Mary.

[Pyro7480]

See post #8.

[drstevej]

***we set our hope on thee***

Mary or Jesus or both? The prayer says Mary.

[eastsider]

I'll take the primary and leave the secondary. There is biblical basis for the primary. The secondary is wholly speculative.

I don't see it as a matter of speculation as much as a matter of meditation. For example, it is not speculative that Jesus is flesh of Mary's flesh, blood of Mary's blood -- "manna" of Mary's "manna," if you will.

[NYer]

I actually got an icon of Mary called Holy Protection. This is what it looks like:

Great story of a miracle attributed to Our Lady of The Holy Protection.

St. Seraphim Miracle

[Pyro7480]

I've read that before. It's a wonderful manifestation of God's love. Thanks!

[drstevej]

***I don't see it as a matter of speculation as much as a matter of meditation.***

Eisegesis too.

[eastsider]

I don't see how it's any more eisegetical than to call both Jesus and Mary the Ark of the Covenant, for example.

[FormerLib]

I will gladly accord Mary every honor the Bible bestows upon this blessed, honored woman.

And knowing that the Bible is about the actions of Jesus and His Apostles and not Mary, isn't it a little odd to demand that the Bible be the source knowing that the Bible is not the source.

When she is accorded by any church such names and attributes and accomplishments that are not in the Bible or contradict the Bible, I am saddened for her sake.

As I've pointed out, neither of your questions contradict the Bible in anyway (unless, of course, you insert your meanings for my words and then declare that I said something that I did not).

I do not mean this to be contentious, rather it is a candid reflection of my convictions.

And I hope you'll receive mine in the same light.

[drstevej]

The preposition "through" is imprecise, I think you would agree.

Catholic theology had a penchant for precision in theological statements and affirmations yet these Marian expressions are often require an explaination other than what appears to the de novo reader.

Let me substitute Jesus for Mary in the prayer and you tell me if it doesn't fit Him better...

***O blessed Son of God, in that we set our hope on thee Jesus, may we not go astray; but through thee Jesus may we be delivered from all adversities, for thou Jesus art the salvation of all Christian people.***

That... is my point.

[FormerLib]

***we set our hope on thee***

Mary or Jesus or both? The prayer says Mary.

Again, the term "focus of our hope" refers to Mary being in the Kingdom of God in her resurrected body as we all hope to be when the time comes. It does not mean that she is the source of that hope.

[drstevej]

***I don't see how it's any more eisegetical than to call both Jesus and Mary the Ark of the Covenant, for example.***

I don't call Mary the ark of the covenant. That is RC inference without any biblical statement that Mary is the antitype of the ark.

[drstevej]

Let me substitute Jesus for Mary in the prayer and you tell me if it doesn't fit Him better...

***O blessed Son of God, in that we set our hope on thee Jesus, may we not go astray; but through thee Jesus may we be delivered from all adversities, for thou Jesus art the salvation of all Christian people.***

That... is my point.

[FormerLib]

Anything is possible with God. But this type of speculation is absolutely ludicous...

It was my intent to show that the Orthodox understanding differs in a such a manner that referring to Mary as a "Co-Redemptrix" is outside of our understanding of her.

This also contradicts our understanding of the Son of God as the Sole Redeemer.

[drstevej]

***And I hope you'll receive mine in the same light.***

I do. This discussion has been charitable on all fronts.

I have to run so I'll leave it with you.

BTW: I still have a long way to go before becoming Pope OR ... ??? Well, that's explained in the Fourth secret of Fatima.

Blessings
- Pope Piel I (the cordial, papable Calvinist)

[eastsider]

I don't call Mary the ark of the covenant. That is RC inference without any biblical statement that Mary is the antitype of the ark.

Can you direct me to the scriptural statement that Jesus is the antitype of the ark?

[eastsider]

I don't call Mary the ark of the covenant. That is RC inference without any biblical statement that Mary is the antitype of the ark.

Can you direct me to the scriptural statement that Jesus is the antitype of the ark?