The Rosary and Orthodoxy

To: Hermann the Cherusker

A quote I googled which relates the mercy seat to Christ as our propitiation...

John's fourth stated purpose in the sending of the Son is that He would be the propitiation for our sins. The word propitiation is found in our text and also in 2:2 of this epistle. The same root word is used in Romans 3:25. A related word, with the same significance, is found in Hebrews 2:17 where it is unfortunately translated as "reconciliation" in the KJV. The original word is used again in Hebrews 9:5 where it is translated as the "mercy-seat" and could have been rendered as the "propitiatory." The typology then in our text takes us back to the mercy seat, the covering for the ark of the covenant in the tabernacle designed by God to show forth the glories of Christ. The lid of the ark, the mercy-seat, was made of pure gold and had a cherub on either end "with their wings stretched forth on high, covering the mercy-seat with their wings, and their faces looking one to another and toward the mercy-seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Exodus 25:17-21). God said, "I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy-seat" (Leviticus 16:2). He also promised, "There I will meet with thee and will commune with thee from above the mercy-seat" (Exodus 25:22). It was on the Day of Atonement that Aaron was to sprinkle blood upon and before the mercy-seat, which was called the propitiatory. The blood was the ground of approach and the ground of acceptance. For us, the Son of God became the propitiator and the propitiation, and the propitiatory.

101 posted on 09/15/2003 8:00:22 PM PDT by drstevej

To: Hermann the Cherusker

***Yes, the Spirit intercedes, and so does Christ, and so do the Saints.***

"Don't be sad, Cause two outa' three ain't bad."
- Meatloaf

HtC, my brain is fried for the evening. Perhaps more tomorrow.

102 posted on 09/15/2003 8:02:36 PM PDT by drstevej

T'was talking about your search, not mine.

Which is why I was amazed that you suggested I'd find more in the latter (Holy Tradition) than in the former (Holy Scripture)!

2 Tomothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Of course, Paul was referring to the Old Testament and he would have taken exception to the idea that you were referring to his words as being Scripture.

But I am not here to contradict anything that Scripture teaches, only to suggest that it was accurate when it taught us to keep the Traditions that they taught us.

103 posted on 09/15/2003 9:06:12 PM PDT by FormerLib (There's no hope on the left!)

Thanks for the pleasant debate FL.

Proddies and Catlicks can discuss issues graciously. :~)

104 posted on 09/15/2003 9:09:33 PM PDT by drstevej

To: drstevej; Hermann the Cherusker; MarMema; The_Reader_David; katnip

***Yes, the Spirit intercedes, and so does Christ, and so do the Saints.***

"Don't be sad, Cause two outa' three ain't bad." - Meatloaf

While the pagans would assure us that all of our saints are simply dead men, the Christian knows better. The Christian knows that they are alive in Christ! And with them being alive, why should we not ask for their prayers? Do we not ask our loved ones for theirs?

Are we no different than the pagans?

It is not dead bones that we acknowledge, but the souls of the righteous made perfect in Christ.

Or what am I missing?

105 posted on 09/15/2003 9:11:37 PM PDT by FormerLib (There's no hope on the left!)

No Romans here!

100% Orthodox! ;-)

106 posted on 09/15/2003 9:12:40 PM PDT by FormerLib (There's no hope on the left!)

Thanks for the pleasant debate FL.

And I'd guess I'd be remiss if I didn't say, "Iron sharpens iron."

107 posted on 09/15/2003 9:14:15 PM PDT by FormerLib (There's no hope on the left!)

Didn't realize you are Ortho.

I like the long beards, might have to introduce them as Pope Piel I (that is if Mrs. Pope Piel will let me grow one).

108 posted on 09/15/2003 9:19:05 PM PDT by drstevej

To: drstevej; Hermann the Cherusker; FormerLib

To understand the typology of the Ark with respect to Mary, it helps to look at the Lucan accounts first, where it is obvious that the early Christians already had a devotion to Mary as Ark of the new Covenant.

Here is a homily I gave a few weeks ago which deals with this exact subject. The relevant gospel passage is Luke 1, 39-56:

The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary – Day Mass

For anyone who prays the Rosary, today’s Gospel is very familiar because St. Luke is telling us about Mary’s visitation to her cousin Elizabeth. It also contains Mary’s famous hymn of praise to God – the Magnificat.

But we are going to take a slightly different look at it today, because we ought to ask ourselves a couple of questions “What has the Visitation got to do with the Feast of the Assumption?”, and also “What has it got to do with that reading about 7 headed dragons trying to eat babies as soon as they are born?”

But there is an important link between these two readings, which was obvious to first century Greek-speaking Jewish Christians. We miss it because we don’t think like them and we don’t know our Old Testament well enough. When I was trying to explain this on paper, I realised that the only way it would make sense is if you had a bible in front of you. As we haven’t got enough bibles to go round – we’ve got the next best thing – a photocopy! (It will make up for not having a newsletter to read during the homily!!)

St. Luke, like many of the New Testament authors is a literary artist, and he is very good at telling his story in a way that is meant to make you think of other stories you have heard. When he tells us that St. John the Baptist LEAPED in his mother’s womb at Mary’s arrival, he uses a very rare Greek word “eskiptesen”. This word only occurs in one other place in the Greek bible. And that’s in 2nd Samuel Chapter 6 where David LEAPED with all his might before the Ark of the Covenant. St. Luke deploys this word deliberately to make his readers think of this story of David going to retrieve the lost Ark.

If you look at the sheets in front of you will see that Luke drives his point home by lifting other phrases directly from 2 Samuel. He tells us that Mary AROSE AND WENT, just like David AROSE AND WENT. She goes to the HILL COUNTRY OF JUDAH, just as DAVID went to the HILL COUNTRY OF JUDAH. Elizabeth greets Mary with the words “WHENCE IS THIS TO ME THAT THE MOTHER OF MY LORD SHOULD COME TO ME?” just as David greeted the Ark with the words “HOW CAN THE ARK OF THE LORD COME TO ME?” The Ark stays in the home of OBEDEDOM THE GITTITE for 3 MONTHS after which the household is blessed by God and all his womenfolk fall pregnant! Just as Mary stays in the home of Elizabeth for 3 MONTHS, after which Elizabeth gives birth to a healthy baby boy!

You are probably wondering “What’s the point of all this?” – but the point is that Luke wants us to know that Our Lady is the NEW Ark of the Covenant. The old Ark of the Covenant was a box (a bit bigger than our tabernacle) made of Acacia wood, covered in gold and crowned with 2 golden cherubim. It contained the Word of God written on Tablets of stone, some Manna – the bread from heaven, and the High Priestly rod of Aaron. It was the holiest object on earth, and it was the Ark that made the Jewish temple holy - when it was placed in the holy of holies – in the sanctuary. In contrast Our Lady bore in her own womb the Word of God enfleshed, the true bread of Heaven in the Body of Christ, who was also the Royal High Priest-King.

The Ark had been lost for 600 years. Jeremiah had hidden it before the Babylonians invaded Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. No-one has found it ever since.
But Luke is now telling us that the old Ark was only a pale shadow or type of the true Ark to come – Mary the Mother of God! St. Luke is being very coded about the way he reveals this to us. But I can only offer you Cardinal Newman’s suggestion as to the reason for this. It is probable that Luke doesn’t want to be too obvious about her identity
because Our Lady was still alive on earth when he wrote his gospel!

However, it is because the New Testament authors understood Our Lady to be the Ark of the Covenant that we can make sense of the reading from St. John’s Apocalypse today. The Apocalypse or Revelation was probably written between September 69 AD and March 70 AD. Just before the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. In his vision John sees God’s judgement being passed on the earthly temple and its leaders. The old covenant and old temple are coming to an end and being replaced by the new covenant and the heavenly temple. The Ark that has been lost for so long suddenly reappears in the temple in heaven and it’s a woman. It is Our Lady who has by now been assumed body and soul into heaven.

But John uses the word “Woman” deliberately, because the scene is also a replay of that first book of the bible where Man and Woman battled with a serpent and lost. (The Hebrew word for dragon “nahash” is the same word they used for serpent). But whereas the defeat of Adam and Eve by the serpent lead to death entering the world, the new Adam and new Eve are victorious over the dragon. By his obedience unto death on the cross, Christ destroys the death of Adam’s disobedience, and by Mary’s obedience she “unties the knot of Eve’s disobedience.” Through Jesus and Mary, mankind is able to receive new life again, come back into friendship with God, and enter heaven.

By giving birth to Christ Mary also gives birth to his members and so is the new mother of all the living. By her Assumption into heaven she truly becomes the life, the sweetness and the hope of all her earthly children. She is our life because we are called to be Arks of the Covenant too – the Word of God is engraved on our hearts, we are nourished by the bread of life, and we are anointed prophets, priests and kings. She is our sweetness because she is our Heavenly Mother and Christ dispenses all His graces to us through her hands. She is our hope because her destiny will be our destiny too if, like her, we remain in friendship with Christ, and do whatev

109 posted on 09/16/2003 12:58:17 AM PDT by Tantumergo

No Romans here!
100% Orthodox! ;-)

Wait! Aren't the Orthodox the real Romans? The Rumi or Romanoi if you prefer?

110 posted on 09/16/2003 5:01:43 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker

This is a great homily, but I must take issue with one line:

The Ark had been lost for 600 years. Jeremiah had hidden it before the Babylonians invaded Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. No-one has found it ever since.

The Ark is in the Church of St. Mary of Zion at Axum, in Ethiopia, guarded by a Priest of the Ethiopian Church. I personally think Isaiah 18 is a pretty clear indication of this.

111 posted on 09/16/2003 5:31:53 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker

To: Hermann the Cherusker

Aren't the Orthodox the real Romans?

The Byzantines could have made that ethnic claim but their faith had expanded to many lands before their fall and I hail from one of those.

112 posted on 09/16/2003 7:00:22 AM PDT by FormerLib (There's no hope on the left!)

The Byzantines could have made that ethnic claim but their faith had expanded to many lands before their fall and I hail from one of those.

I don't view it as an ethnic claim. As the Patriarch Anthony of Constantinople famously wrote to Basil I of Russia in 1393, the East Roman Emperor "is elected Emperor and Autokrator of the Romans, that is of all Christians."

The Catholic Church commemorated the Emperor of Austria-Hungary as the West Roman Emperor in the same way up to the fall of the Empire. There were prayers for him in the Canon, on Good Friday, and in the Collects for use ad libitum by the Priest at most Masses durign the year.

There is much more to be said of this, but not here.

113 posted on 09/16/2003 7:59:44 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker

To: Hermann the Cherusker

The Catholic Church commemorated the Emperor of Austria-Hungary as the West Roman Emperor in the same way up to the fall of the Empire.

I didn't know that but it certainly explains a lot about that empire!

114 posted on 09/16/2003 10:14:22 AM PDT by FormerLib (There's no hope on the left!)

The Catholic Church commemorated the Emperor of Austria-Hungary as the West Roman Emperor in the same way up to the fall of the Empire.

I didn't know that but it certainly explains a lot about that empire!

From around the late 1400's or early 1500's the Habsburgs held the throne of the Holy Roman Empire. They had a power of veto over the selection of the Pope of Rome, last exercised to prevent the election of the freemason Cardinal Rampolla in 1903, thus causing the election to the See of Peter to fall instead to St. Pius X.

You might find the website of the 91 year, Otto von Habsburg, of interest. He is not the true pretender, however, since he renounced his rights in 1961. That falls to his eldest son, Karl (he has seven children).

115 posted on 09/16/2003 10:36:24 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker

To: Hermann the Cherusker

"The Ark is in the Church of St. Mary of Zion at Axum, in Ethiopia, guarded by a Priest of the Ethiopian Church. I personally think Isaiah 18 is a pretty clear indication of this."

It might be, but I have heard so many tales of the discovery of the Ark in recent years, that I tend to be a little sceptical about them.

Many middle eastern countries had arks of course, but apart from Israel's they tended to have an effigy of the queen mother enthroned on the mercy seat.

Which of course is another OT type of Mary - the Gebirah or Queen Mother!!!!!

116 posted on 09/16/2003 11:24:18 AM PDT by Tantumergo

It might be, but I have heard so many tales of the discovery of the Ark in recent years, that I tend to be a little sceptical about them.

This hasn't been discovered "recently". It was the only claim going for a long time.

Graham Hancock has put together a very persuasive historical argument to trace the path down to Ethiopia in "The Sign and the Seal" some excerpts of which are here. An intersting summation of the evidence he presents is also to be found here.

Many middle eastern countries had arks of course, but apart from Israel's they tended to have an effigy of the queen mother enthroned on the mercy seat.

From the second site linked:

Subsequent to this initial investigation, we located and interviewed two people who have claimed to have seen the object resting in St. Mary's of Zion. The first was a 105-year-old priest who once was the administrator at St. Mary's of Zion. On two occasions, he said, when the Guardian of the Ark died and a new guardian was trained in the worship rituals, he was able to gaze upon the relic. He described it as a gold box with two winged angels on top.

117 posted on 09/16/2003 11:45:39 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker

To: Hermann the Cherusker

The Ethiopians have an interesting account of how they came by the Ark, but it does not fit with the account found in Holy Scripture:

2 Macc 2,1 "Now it is found in the descriptions of Jeremias the prophet, that he commanded them that went into captivity, to take the fire, as it hath been signified, and how he gave charge to them that were carried away into captivity.
2 And how he gave them the law that they should not forget the commandments of the Lord, and that they should not err in their minds, seeing the idols of gold, and silver, and the ornaments of them.
3 And with other such like speeches, he exhorted them that they would not remove the law from their heart.
4 It was also contained in the same writing, how the prophet, being warned by God, commanded that the tabernacle and the ark should accompany him, till he came forth to the mountain " where Moses went up, and saw the inheritance of God.
5 And when Jeremias came thither he found a hollow cave: and he carried in thither the tabernacle, and the ark, and the altar of incense, and so stopped the door.
6 Then some of them that followed him, came up to mark the place: but they could not And it.
7 And when Jeremias perceived it, he blamed them, saying: The place shall be unknown, till God gather together the congregation of the people, and receive them to mercy.
8 And then the Lord will shew these things, and the majesty of the Lord shall appear, and there shall be a cloud as it was also shewed to Moses, "and he shewed it when Solomon prayed that the place might be sanctified to the great God."

How do you think the Ethiopian account and the Scriptural account can be reconciled?

Or is it more likely that what the Ethiopians have is not the real Ark?

118 posted on 09/16/2003 1:02:22 PM PDT by Tantumergo

I'm beginning to understand why the early Christians would not allow catechumens to witness the Eucharist or even hear the Nicene Creed!
I came back to see if this thread was going anywhere, and found this gem. LOL : )

119 posted on 09/18/2003 8:14:24 AM PDT by eastsider

To: Hermann the Cherusker

120 posted on 10/07/2003 2:32:14 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)

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