Posted on 08/13/2003 6:04:31 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
Introduction: the Anti-Predestinarian Syllogism
In debates between Reformation Protestants and Arminian neo-Protestants, it is common for Arminians to invoke a peculiar and logically-fallacious syllogism in an effort to deflect attention from the evidentiary insurmountability of the Biblical Case for Reformation Protestantism. This syllogism is constructed in the form of a classic ad hominem Guilt-by-Association argument, according to the following general Form:
Needless to say, it makes little impression upon the Arminian neo-Protestant that the Doctrines of Absolute Predestination were believed by Godly Christians for centuries before Calvin (i.e., 10th-15th Century Waldensian CredoBaptists, the 6th-9th Century Presbyters of Iona, the 4th-10th Century Ambrosian Catholics, Saint Augustine, the Apostles, Jesus Christ Himself, etc). What matters is the argumentative usefulness of being able to lay this charge to the particular account of John Calvin, and thus evade the theological defeat of the UnBiblical Arminian systematic heresy by re-framing the debate as a mud-throwing competition directed against one particular Reformer.
Now, before we proceed, we should observe: the Arminian neo-Protestant assertions against Calvin are not borne out by the Facts of History in the first place.
Uncomfortable Facts about Michael Servetus
Michael Servetus was:
In point of History, Michael Servetus was executed as a matter of State Punishment, as sentenced by the Civil Council of Geneva – which itself was controlled at the time by Calvin’s political enemies, the Libertines. In fact, as the Libertine Party itself rejected Calvin’s doctrine of Predestination, it is more historically accurate to say that Servetus was killed by the Anti-Predestinarian “protestants”, than to attribute the deed to Calvin (who at any rate pleaded for a more merciful execution “by the Sword”, rather than the slow burning-to-death on which the vicious Anti-Predestinarians insisted).
Be that as it may, however, it needs be asked – if it is appropriate for Arminian neo-Protestants to employ such a Syllogism against the Reformer John Calvin, is it not equally appropriate to measure by the same standard the heretical Schismatic who, perhaps more than any other single man, was fundamentally responsible for sundering the Godly unity of Reformation Protestantism into a thousand confused and competing sects – James Arminius? To that Question we now turn:
Arminius – his teachings on Politics, Religion, and the Sword of the State
All Authority under Heaven, concerning both Natural and Spiritual matters, is concentrated in the Absolute Power of the State
It is the sole and absolute duty of the State to enforce all Ten Commandments, and to enact all laws both civil and ecclesiastical, and to eradicate all Evil from society.
All Authority over the Christian Church is concentrated in the Absolute Power of the State
The Utter Subjection of all Human life, whether natural or spiritual, to the Dictates of the Absolute State should be “terrified and compelled” by the Power of the Sword:
Phew.... Thank God that America was founded primarily by convinced Calvinists, and not Arminians. Moving along, though, let us now apply the Arminian's Favorite Syllogism -- to Arminius himself.
Arminius at the Bar of the Arminian Syllogism:
Hmmmm. Howzabout that.
Didn't you just argue against speculation?
Tell me, how many times have you seen the person at the altar call who repents and turns to Christ proceed to take his own life?
No, I think it's pretty safe to say the son of perdition will not be joining us at the feast.
| An Omniscient God can not learn anything. If He learns amything, He wasn't omniscient before.
This isn't rocket science. |
Ctd the cross does effect the eternal destiny of all men?
Think of all the predestined events that had to happen to get to the cross. God had to predestine Abraham and the nation of Israel, God had to predestine Moses , God had to predestine their presence in Egypt, then he had to predestine the Exodus . God had to predestine the existence and the continuation of Israel , He had to predestine their preservation, He had to predestine a woman named Ann that would give birth to a girl named Mary...all the way from Adam all event were predestined to lead to the cross. And to day God is also in complete control of History and is predestining events to lead us to the second coming
Ctd the cross does effect the eternal destiny of all men?
Think of all the predestined events that had to happen to get to the cross. God had to predestine Abraham and the nation of Israel, God had to predestine Moses , God had to predestine their presence in Egypt, then he had to predestine the Exodus . God had to predestine the existence and the continuation of Israel , He had to predestine their preservation, He had to predestine a woman named Ann that would give birth to a girl named Mary...all the way from Adam all event were predestined to lead to the cross. And to day God is also in complete control of History and is predestining events to lead us to the second coming
(Re: 'ordained') "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Jean is DEAD ON.
Actually, Arminians strongly assert that it is only through salvation that a man can become more like Christ and over time choose to become more in conformance with the will of God and to lead a life of less sin. This is what Arminians believe becomimg perfect (meaning becoming more mature) in Christ. Rather than being fuzzy, this is one thing that is clear as can be in Arminian theology.
I see two alternatives: 1)God had no idea a particular sin would occur, or 2)God had no choice but to allow a particular sin to occur. You can choose Open Theism or the God that isn't God.
Yeah, Saul's conversion was clearly of his own 'free will.' LOL! :)
Makes perfect sense to me that the most vocal advocate for sovereign election and irresistable grace was one of the biggest case studies for it:)
I did not make as to what Judas's suicide meant in terms of his salvation. I only said the Bible says that he was sorrowful and full of remorse. That is not speculation.
?????
You most certainly have been doing that very thing from my earliest memories of you on these threads!
It was you, after all, that made the statement:
As you can see from the direct quote above, Palmer most certainly did state that God foreordained sin. You have said you have a copy of his book so you can confirm it for yourself. I think part of the communication problem may be indirectly related to the fact that you did not grow up in a hyper-Calvinist environment and may simply not been exposed to the unBiblical principles it espouses. This is, of course, no fault of your own.
-connectthedots in Post #99 of The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 3 thread
You are here expousing the belief that all who believe that God pre-ordains all sin are "hyper-Calvinists". And, ~all~ Calvinists profess that God pre-ordains all sin.
Therefore, you are expousing the belief that ALL Calvinists are "hyper-Calvinists".
It is also you who claim that "hyper-Calvinism" is "extreme" Calvinism.
So, yes, you ~ARE~ trying to paint all Calvinists as "extremes".
You are also the one who was asking the question:
Would you agree that someone who believes that God foreordained all sin is a hyper-Calvinist?"
-connectthedots in Post #218
of the The Freewill Argument - Atheism scores against Arminianism!?! thread
Since ~ALL~ Calvinists believe that God pre-ordained all sin, what else is this question if it is not a rhetorical question attempting to label ~ALL~ Calvinists as "hyper"/"extreme" Calvinists?????
"but if you insist that all Calvinists believe that God preordained all sins"
~I~ don't insist on anything. It's simply fact. Read the confessions, ctd. I've laid it out clearly to you numerous times.
Calvin professed this belief.
The Calvinist Belgic Confession of 1561 confesses that God forordained/predestined both the Fall and all sin!
The Calvinist Heidelberg Catechismof 1563 confesses that God forordained/predestined both the Fall and all sin!
The Calvinist Westminster Confession of 1647 confesses that God forordained/predestined both the Fall and all sin!
The Calvinist Westminster Longer Confession of 1648 confesses that God forordained/predestined both the Fall and all sin!
The Calvinist Westminster Shorter Confession of 1648 confesses that God forordained/predestined both the Fall and all sin!
The Calvinist Waldensian Confession of 1655 confesses that God forordained/predestined both the Fall and all sin!
The Calvinist Baptist Confession of 1677 confesses that God forordained/predestined both the Fall and all sin!
Read the documents for yourself as to what Calvinism has been professing since it's inception and quit bellyaching!
Jean
I did not say this at all. What I said was Calvinism teaches that God predestined/foreordained all sin. I have no real problem with foreknowledge of God, nor do I have a problem with the idea that there were some sins that God did predestine/foreordain which were necessary to fulfill prophesies or to accomplish his ultimate will for mankind. That is far different than saying God predestined/foreordained all sin. I stongly believe that God is God. I also believe that there is no real possibilityu of a love relationship if the object of our love has no ability to reject the love offered.
"amything"?????
Jean
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