Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ460.HTM ^ | Dave Armstrong compiles quotes from Martin Luther, John Calvin, et al.,

[LiteKeeper]

Unconvincing. These men were just as fallible as we are today. There are many others who would disagree with them, then and now. You have nothing but fallible human beings carrying on a "tradition"...a tradition that is not universally agreed to.

[Patrick Madrid]

Unconvincing. That's just your fallible human opinion. there are many others who would disagree with you. Sorry, you score no points with that "argument."

[el_chupacabra]

It seems to me that the honest response from the Sola Scriptura crowd should be that scripture is either silent on the issue or supportive of the Catholic position.

To cling to the position that Mary was not ever-virgin, without solid scriputral basis, reveals the real agenda -- not to uphold scripture, but rather to challenge all things considered Catholic.

[Patrick Madrid]

I agree. And as I pointed out in an earlier post on the "Fr. Ron Tacelli Article" thread, Scripture is silent on this issue, in terms of an explicit statement saying either that Mary had other children besides Christ or that she did not have other children besides Christ.

The fact is, as even Protestant leaders such as Martin Luther and John Calvin (no friends of Catholicism) readily recognized and admitted, the historic Christian teaching on this issue was that Mary remained a perpetual virgin.

Since the sola scriptura mindset cannot possibly resolve this issue, it is eminently reasonable to consider what the early Christians in the first several centuries of Christianity believed and taught about Mary's virginity. You will find -- and I'd be happy to post examples to corroborate this, if anyone wants to see them -- that orthodox Christian belief in Mary's perpetual virginity was both ubiquitous and continuous during those first fifteen centuries. I respectfully suggest that that is a fact our Protestant friends should ponder carefully and prayerfully.

[DManA]

You guys aren't obsessed with Mary are you. No not a bit.

[Patrick Madrid]

Obsessed? No. At least no moreso than Martin Luther or John Calvin. And let's not forget that Catholic marian teachings are at the forefront of the arguments consistently raised by Protestant critics of the Catholic Church. So, since it always seems to get around to Mary in these discussions, why do you flinch when Catholics bring her up first? Is there an unspoken double standard at work here perhaps?

[RobbyS]

As you can glimpse in the writings of Luther and Calvin, the radical wing of the Reformation never honored Mary. But it has little to do with what is in the Bible. Rather it has to do with their dogmatic rejection of Catholicism.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Bump!

[ventana]

Is this more appropriately posted on the Neverending Story thread? It is where Calvinists and Catholics engage in debate and Apologetics is advanced. Jim Robinson seems to have it particularly for that purpose. Just noting fyi. V's wife.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

A lot of us don't go over to the NES thread. I like having this type of thing out on the main forum periodically, especially for lurkers.

[ventana]

I see your point. I respect Jim's preferences for the use of his site and wouldn't want to compromise the Religion section where so many fine Catholic as well as other religious information is posted. It's edifying. I guess JR will let it be know how much bandwith apologetics is furnished herein. V's wife.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

These men were just as fallible as we are today.

Hmmmm ... I must make a decision! Shall I follow a self-admittedly fallible set of beliefs termed Protestantism, or a self-admittedly infallible set of beliefs termed Catholicism?

If I follow Protestantism, I'm likely to be wrong. Therefore, it shouldn't matter to stay a Catholic, since even though Protestants think me wrong, they think themselves wrong too. At worst, we are all wrong together, just on different things, and God will forgive us of the blessed muddle. At best though, we Catholics are right, and Protestants are in for a tough surprise at the judgement.

So no matter who is right, there is no harm in being a Catholic, but if Catholics are right, being a Protestant would be deadly.

[Patrick Madrid]

Pascal would be proud of you ;)

[MarMema]

historic Christian teaching on this issue was that Mary remained a perpetual virgin

And that would, indeed, be fact.

[ACAC]

I am not one of them, but I know some protestants who think Catholics are not going to Heaven. They say Catholics are trying to work their way into Heaven and have not asked Jesus to forgive their sins. I am offended when either a CAtholic or Protestant claims only they are going to Heaven.

[Salvation]

Bookmarking

[Salvation]

**That's just your fallible human opinion.**

[nickcarraway]

BUMP

[NYer]

even though Protestants think me wrong, they think themselves wrong too

Pinging the troops ... both camps! I'll put on the first pot of coffee.