Mary's Relationship with the Trinity

EWTN ^ | January 1996 | Pope John Paul II

[Hermann the Cherusker]

If God wants us to Study the scriptures for ourselves, he should do His omnipotent part in keeping them free of error.

So all the contradictory translations and redactions of the Bible, the contradictory Canons of books - all this is infallible in each instance?

Catholics wisely do not go so far. We proclaim the Vulgate edition is free of all doctrinal and moral errors, and we have defined what the Canon of books is. But we would hardly claim it to be spot on in all ways, because it is always possible older manuscripts will surface that will newly clarify an old controverted translation or variant reading. At this late date, it is difficult to take seriously the assertion that God protects the making of all these translations.

[NYer]

Sorry the HTML didn't handle the formatting well at all. I could email you a pdf if interested. I prepared this for our International Sunday School class.

Thank you but that won't be necesary.

Where in all that you posted is your answer to the question: What is the authority for interpreting the bible?

[Salvation]

**The virgin conception and birth does not require a sinless Mary.**

"Mary, full of grace"

No room for anything else, FULL of grace!

You are wrong here. "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus."

She was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the most holy Trinity. An abode for Christ, the Second Person of the most holy Trinity.

Yes, she was sinless.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Mary heard from Gabriel.

Mary spent 33 years with Jesus, who is God Almighty. Puts Moses' 30 days to shame ...

[DManA]

I didn't speak badly about Mary. I quoted Jesus. He couldn't have spoken badly about his mother because that would have been a sin.

[Blessed]

However, Blessed Mary and the company of Saints and Martyrs are in heaven. This is certain because it is the very meaning of the term, saint

On another thread it was said RC theology says the period of time in Purgatory can not be determined.That is why the Pope needs prayer after death.Which is correct?

[wai-ming]

How about Moses. He actually saw God's backside...

Whew! That's one I've never heard before. Can you provide chapter and verse? I'd like to check it out for myself--the scripture that is.

[Blessed]

For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? [is it] not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

Exd 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Exd 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

Exd 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Exd 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Exd 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

Exd 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

Exd 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

[drstevej]

***Mary, full of grace***

So was Stephen. He was also full of power which didn't make him omnipotent.

*** "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus."***

To be blessed does not imply sinlessness. In Jesus case, He clearly as as noted in other passages. Mary is not the only person who is blessed (Psalm 1, the beattitudes).

***She was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the most holy Trinity. An abode for Christ, the Second Person of the most holy Trinity.***

I fully agree.

***Yes, she was sinless.***

Isaiah 53:6 All we [except Mary] like sheep have gone astray; we [except Mary] have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[Blessed]

Catholics wisely do not go so far. We proclaim the Vulgate edition is free of all doctrinal and moral errors, and we have defined what the Canon of books is. But we would hardly claim it to be spot on in all ways, because it is always possible older manuscripts will surface that will newly clarify an old controverted translation or variant reading. At this late date, it is difficult to take seriously the assertion that God protects the making of all these translations.

I think you have finally hit the crux of the matter.It takes faith to believe in a God that can preserve his word through time.It takes faith to accept Jesus as your Lord and savior.He simply says trust in me not in a man made system of do's and don'ts.

[wai-ming]

Thanks for the reference.

So, according to the scripture, God had/has a face and body? Very interesting.

[Land of the Irish]

"However, Blessed Mary and the company of Saints and Martyrs are in heaven. This is certain because it is the very meaning of the term, saint"

"On another thread it was said RC theology says the period of time in Purgatory can not be determined.That is why the Pope needs prayer after death.Which is correct?"

They both are correct. Nobody is a saint until they enter Heaven. Not too many people go straight to Heaven after their deaths (The Blessed Mother did, for she was without sin). Prayers for the souls in Purgatory lessen their time in Purgatory. Once they are released from Purgatory, they are accepted into Heaven and become saints.

I would hope most Catholics know that they are due to spend some time in Purgatory, and would appreciate that prayers (both before and after their deaths) be said for them to lessen their corporal punishment.

[Blessed]

Most certainly Jesus Christ fully God and fully man.When he walked on earth he just gave us glimpses of his glory.As this passage shows man could not stand in the presence of God almighty .Read further in the passage Moses had to wear a vale because he was coverd with glory just from this glimpse

[Blessed]

If the time can not be determined how can you say with certainty they are saints? I think you would agree only Jesus can judge souls.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Adopt the biblical definition of "saint" and you eliminate purgatory.

I think not.

And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city and appeared to many. (Matthew 27.52-53)

The context is clearly the Catholic definition - the just and holy among the dead.

And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (Revelation 5.8)

And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Revelation 8.3-4)

The context is also clearly the Catholic definition. Even more so than before, because the saints and angels in heaven are presented as praying to God.

And the nations were angry: and thy wrath is come. And the time of the dead, that they should be judged and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great: and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth. (Revelation 11.18)

The saints here are presented as the group among the dead who are to be rewarded with eternal life. This is, of course, the Catholic definition, again.

Here is the patience of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14.12)

That's about as straightforward as you can get of an exact duplicate of the Catholic definition.

Now I know what you are getting at. There is nothing wrong with calling the faithful of the Church "saints" in the sense that they are part of Holy Church, and aspire to live life so as to become a saint. But over time, a more singular meaning has been attached to the word to narrow its use in normal ecclesial useage to that shown in the examples above.

[drstevej]

***so as to become a saint.***

EPH 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus

NOT potential saints, or future saints... but SAINTS. I could cite many of these texts describing believers as saints prior to death.

***But over time, a more singular meaning has been attached to the word to narrow its use in normal ecclesial useage to that shown in the examples above.***

Yep, once again tradition trumps Scripture, sadly. We both agree there are saints in heaven. What you ignore is that there are saints living now and that saint and believer are often used interchageably.

Furthermore the canonization of saints with attesting miracles has no biblical foundation and is at odds with the New testament.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

On another thread it was said RC theology says the period of time in Purgatory can not be determined.That is why the Pope needs prayer after death.Which is correct?

Whoever said the Pope is a saint? Do you just pull this stuff out of thin air? "The tomb: I would like to be in real earth, with a humble marker indicating the place and asking for Christian mercy. No monument for me." (Last will and testmanet of Pope Paul VI)

Every Catholic who dies, who is not in notorious sin, receievs a funeral Mass at which we pray for their soul, that it might be released from Purgatory should they need to go there. And at every Mass, we pray for all who "sleep in Christ" that they might enter into heaven. These prayers only stop when the person is Canonized, which is a declaration that the way they lived their life merited that they should enter directly into heaven without passing through purgatory. So those who are canonized when straight to heaven. Among those who are not, some may have gone straight to heaven (saints), others straight to hell (damned), and others to purgatory (holy souls), for a final cleansing before admittance to heaven.

[Land of the Irish]

If the time can not be determined how can you say with certainty they are saints?

In this Novus Church, I can't. I took for my Confirmation name, Christopher. A year later, the Novus Church declared him a non-saint, removed him from the Church calendar and even speculated whether he even existed, and not a valid name for Confirmation. Go figure.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

***Yes, she was sinless.***

Isaiah 53:6 All we [except Mary] like sheep have gone astray; we [except Mary] have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The Bible clearly says St. John the Baptist (Luke 1.15) and Jeremiah the Prophet (Jeremiah 1.5) were filled with the Holy Ghost and sanctified from the womb of their mothers (and thus were sinless in life, aside from contracting Original Sin). You say Blessed Mary did not receive a similar and even greater bestowal of grace at conception, but that she only became full of grace around the time of the Annunciation.

It is astounding to think that God would bestow such a great gift of a sinless life from the womb on Jeremiah and St. John the Baptist, but not on Blessed Mary.

[drstevej]

So the filling of the Spirit makes one sinless? How about the command in Ephesians 5:18 addressed to living Christians?

Clearly in Ephesians 5:18 filling is linked to the Spirit's control (note the parallel to being drunk) not sinlessness.

***It is astounding to think that God would bestow such a great gift of a sinless life from the womb on Jeremiah and St. John the Baptist, but not on Blessed Mary.***

You triplicate the misunderstanding. Can we sin in the womb?