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Bishop Bruskewitz to the Society of St. Pius X: "You can't have it both ways!"
St. Joseph Foundation ^ | August 22, 1996 | Charles M. Wilson

Posted on 04/11/2003 7:13:44 AM PDT by NYer

Bishop Bruskewitz to the Society of St. Pius X: "You can't have it both ways!"


By Charles M. Wilson

The Foundation has received more compliments on the lead article in the last issue than any article which has appeared in CHRISTIFIDELIS since the newsletter began publication in 1984. The Diocese of Lincoln has received thousands of letters expressing support and gratitude for Bishop Bruskewitz’s action and only an insignificant number criticizing him, so I am not surprised that our readers would react as they did. Even so, there is one category of criticism received by the Diocese of Lincoln and the Foundation which deserves a response. I am referring to the members and sympathizers of the Society of St. Pius X (hereafter the Society or SSPX) who objected to the Society’s being named at all and its being lumped together with such groups as Call To Action, Catholics for a Free Choice, Planned Parenthood and the Freemasons.

For an organization to be included in Bishop Bruskewitz’s legislation three conditions must be present: (1) It must have members in the Diocese of Lincoln; (2) membership therein is deemed by the bishop to be perilous to or incompatible with the Catholic faith; (3) it asserts falsely that membership does not contradict membership in the Catholic Church.

Let me state my position right off the bat. There is no doubt in my mind that conditions (1) and (3) apply to the Society and there is persuasive evidence that condition (2) also applies. I support Bishop Bruskewitz’s action and offer the following article in support of my conclusions.

 

Archbishop Lefebvre

 

Over 90% of the people who will read this article are Americans. Yet I hope that our good readers in Canada and other countries outside the United States will appreciate the use of some analogies drawn from American history which seem singularly on target. In the first place, some incidents associated with the birth of our country might give rise to a certain special sympathy for the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. We revere Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and many, many others who stood up to their lawful king, his ministers, his legislature and his army and navy rather than compromise their principles. The signers of our Declaration of Independence mutually pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor in a cause history would now regard as a foolhardy rebellion against a duly constituted regime which by eighteenth century standards was most benign, had it been General Washington instead of Lord Cornwallis who was forced to surrender at Yorktown in 1781. It is then understandable that we would instinctively feel some degree of admiration toward a man who in our own time stood up for what he sincerely believed was right in the face of powerful opposition.

Faithful Catholics of all nationalities who embrace the teaching of the Church and love the beauty of her traditional liturgy are as well inclined to have feelings of sympathy and gratitude toward Archbishop Lefebvre. We sympathize because we agree with much of what he said and we are grateful because the celebration of the traditional Mass would not be possible and the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter would not exist save for him. Furthermore, in our constant and frustrating struggle against the kind of atrocities we see in "Straws in the Wind," we know that Archbishop Lefebvre was equally horrified. As the old Arab maxim goes, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Still, the sympathy, admiration and gratitude we may have toward Archbishop Lefebvre must not blind us to our duty toward the Church. It may be all right to consider the archbishop something of a latter day Patrick Henry, but only if we keep in mind that it was not George III who our Lord Jesus Christ was addressing when He said: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church" and "He who hears you hears me." Similarly, some have cast Archbishop Lefebvre as a modern St. Athanasius, suffering for his opposition to modernism much as the fourth century Doctor of the Church endured persecution and exile for fighting Arianism. This comparison falls short because the historical conditions are not analogous. Most of St. Athanasius’ persecutors were themselves heretics, usurpers or intrusive emperors. One exception was, of course, Pope Liberius, who under duress condemned Athanasius in 357. By contrast Archbishop Lefebvre has defied legitimate holders of ecclesiastical office, including Popes Paul VI and John Paul II. It is beyond question that John Paul II is the legitimate successor of Peter and was not acting under duress when Archbishop Lefebvre manifestly violated the Holy Father’s express, personal command by ordaining four bishops without the required mandate of the Holy See in 1988. Whether the act constituted schism in the strict sense of the word does not change this, nor do the differing opinions proffered by learned canonists.

 

The SSPX Today

 

Returning again to the American analogy, what that loose confederation called the United States of America would become was by no means certain when the Treaty of Paris was signed on September 3, 1783. There is not much doubt that Washington would have been crowned king had he wanted the job or that he and his generals could have easily established a military dictatorship. Conversely, the nation might just as easily have come apart, as it almost did 77 years later, and what is now the territory of the 48 contiguous states would contain a collection of smaller nations. What the United States was in 1783, what it was at various times between then and now or what it might have become is completely beside the point when one considers domestic or foreign policy matters in 1996. Likewise, what Bishop Bruskewitz had to consider was not what the Society was when Archbishop Lefebvre founded it in 1970 nor what it was when he illicitly ordained the four bishops in 1988 nor what it was at the time of his death on March 25, 1991, but what it is in the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska in 1996. It is from this perspective that we consider whether or not the SSPX meets the three criteria set forth in Bishop Bruskewitz’s legislative act of March 22, 1996.

 

Membership and Activities

 

St. Michael the Archangel Chapel in Lincoln is not a building but an association formed for the purpose of providing for the celebration of the Traditional Mass. Ironically, the building it has used is a cemetery chapel which is also the site of Masonic and Buddhist ceremonies. The fact that the SSPX has recently conducted public worship there was acknowledged by the Society’s District Superior, Father Peter R. Scott, in his letter to Bishop Bruskewitz, dated March 27 and since published by the Society.

The subject of membership is less simple. The SSPX does not have lay members in the strict sense of the word and none of its priest-members reside in the Diocese of Lincoln. If being formally enrolled as a member of the Society is what is necessary to incur the penalties legislated by Bishop Bruskewitz, then it is clear that no one in the Diocese of Lincoln has incurred interdiction or excommunication for being a member thereof. However, the obvious intent of the legislation was to deter Catholics from becoming so closely associated with any of the twelve organizations named that they would risk accepting those beliefs and practices which are in conflict with the Catholic faith. This means that what is really at issue is not formal enrollment but adherence. For example, if one were to regularly attend meetings and other public activities of Call to Action, participate in its illicit liturgies, subscribe to its publications, applaud its leaders and support it financially, then one could be considered an adherent and subject to the penalties established by law. The same could be said of the SSPX, so we must then proceed to determine if adherence to the Society is perilous to the faith and if it has claimed that such adherence by Catholics does not contradict their membership in the Church.

 

Perilous to or Incompatible with the Catholic Faith?

 

Some 35 years ago, I worked in the purchasing department of a large corporation. One day we attended a training session where a company lawyer was to instruct us on the discriminatory pricing sections of the Robinson-Patman Act. To do this in an hour was quite a challenge, so he began by saying, with tongue in cheek, "This is a subject on which thousand-page books have been written and most of them are regarded as terse and superficial." Now that I am going to try to deal with a subject far more complex than the Robinson-Patman Act in a few paragraphs, I know just how he felt.

That which God has made known to us in order to be saved is referred to by the Church as Divine Revelation or the Word of God. This Revelation is to be found only in sacred Scripture and that teaching of the apostles which was not recorded in writing at the time. The latter is called sacred Tradition. "Sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God, which is entrusted to the Church...But the task of giving authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it." (Vatican II, Dei Verbum, No. 10.) The Magisterium can be exercised in several ways. A solemn definition by the pope alone as well as a definition of a lawfully convened ecumenical council confirmed by the pope are protected by the Holy Spirit and, therefore, infallible. Also infallible is a teaching of the entire college of bishops, even while scattered throughout the world, in union among themselves and with the successor of Peter, when they agree that the teaching must be definitively held.

Anything which contradicts or seriously distorts this Word of God as faithfully interpreted and handed down by the Magisterium can surely be regarded as perilous to or incompatible with the Catholic faith.

The primary charge is that the SSPX contradicts or seriously distorts the Word of God as interpreted by the Magisterium appears to rest on its alleged non-acceptance of at least three of the sixteen pronouncements of the Second Vatican Council: The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum concilium, the Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis redintegratio, and the Declaration on Religious Liberty, Dignitatis humanae. The secondary charge is that, by its defiance of the rightful authority of the pope and the bishops in communion with him, the Society has challenged the doctrine of papal primacy and the rightful authority of the bishops as lawful shepherds of their particular churches.

Bishop Bruskewitz has the authority to judge whether or not these charges are true insofar as they apply to what the Society and its adherents do within the Diocese of Lincoln. I have no such authority at all, either in the Diocese of Lincoln or anywhere else, so all I can do is express a private opinion.

Archbishop Lefebvre engaged in a lengthy dialog with the Holy See over the proper interpretation of Vatican II. Finally, in May, 1988, he signed an agreement with the Holy See in which he accepted Vatican II if interpreted in accord with sacred Tradition. In my view, that is the only way Vatican II or any other ecumenical council could possibly be interpreted. Unfortunately, Archbishop Lefebvre subsequently repudiated his agreement and an examination of recent public statements of the SSPX, including the current exchange of correspondence between Fr. Scott and Bishop Bruskewitz, leads me to conclude that the Society has gone beyond castigating the distortions and spurious interpretations of the Council and has, for all practical purposes, rejected the Council itself.

As far as I am concerned, there is no argument that the SSPX has considered itself absolved from any obligation of submission to the pope or any diocesan bishop. It conducts public worship and administers the sacraments wherever it chooses without so much as a nod in the direction of the competent authority. It reserves the right to alienate itself from the teaching authority of the pope and, in effect, has instituted its own canons of orthodoxy.

If I were serving on a jury trying to decide the Society’s guilt or innocence, the evidence I have seen thus far would cause me to be inclined to vote guilty on the primary charge but I would want to see some more before casting a final vote. As to the secondary charge, I say guilty.

 

False Assertions of Union with Rome

 

In a letter dated May 13 to Fr. Scott, also published by the SSPX, Bishop Bruskewitz states that the Society’s chapel in Lincoln has claimed in advertisements in the local newspaper and telephone directory that it is "in full union with Rome." I would say that such a claim is deceptive, unless you go along with the Society’s definition of what "Rome" is or, more important, what "Rome says." Whenever we hear the term "Rome says," we understand this to mean the official pronouncements of the Holy See. However, judging by a recent promotional leaflet distributed by the SSPX, portions of which appear at the end of this article, it seems that the Society would define "Rome says" as the private statements of current or retired officials of the Roman Curia, observations of canon lawyers living in Rome or elsewhere, dissertations written by individuals studying at pontifical universities or replies of a department of the Holy See to inquiries from members of the faithful.

The leaflet bothers me more than the newspaper or telephone directory advertisements because it went to a lot more people, most of whom live in dioceses where the bishop is not as vigilant as Bishop Bruskewitz. The leaflet’s unmistakable message is that the SSPX and its priests are under no canonical sanction whatever and that the Catholic faithful are as free to attend Society Masses as they are to attend Masses celebrated in diocesan parishes. This is, at the very least, sheer balderdash and is obviously intended to entice the unsuspecting and the uninformed.

 

Some Difficulties with the Leaflet

 

The general difficulty I have with the leaflet is that it employs a non-sequitur which has nothing to do with the present case, i.e., whether or not the ordination of bishops by Archbishop Lefebvre without the mandate of the Holy See was intrinsically schismatic, and then leaps to the conclusion that the SSPX is perfectly O.K. Beyond that, I have very serious questions about the use of the statements of three individuals, none of whom has endorsed or is affiliated in any way with the SSPX.

Count Capponi did indeed make the statement the leaflet attributes to him. But he has also said publicly that, while he was a sympathizer of Archbishop Lefebvre, he was not a follower. Moreover, as the SSPX is well aware, in 1994 the "independent" traditionalist chapel of Our Lady of Fatima in Pequannock, NJ, received an offer from the Bishop of Paterson whereby the chapel would be regularized and served by the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter. A faction of SSPX adherents within the chapel membership wanted to reject the offer and demanded that Masses there be celebrated by Society priests, claiming that they were acting out of necessity according to c. 1323, 4°. In response and at my request, Count Capponi prepared an opinion wherein he said: "If Bishop Rodimer’s offer of reconciliation and the services of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter are refused, those who continue to attend the Masses celebrated by priests of the Society of St. Pius X cannot any longer claim to be acting in a state of necessity as foreseen by canon 1323, 4°."

Father Gerald Murray has written a very strong letter to the SSPX pointing out the outright errors made and quotations taken out of context in the extracts from an interview which appeared in The Latin Mass Magazine. The citation in the leaflet would imply that Fr. Murray sees nothing at all wrong with attending SSPX Masses, when in fact he clearly said otherwise in the same article. Incidentally, Fr. Murray has since reassessed the arguments made in his licentiate thesis (not his doctoral thesis, as erroneously stated by the SSPX) and now considers his earlier interpretation of the state of necessity as too broad.

Cardinal Ratzinger’s decision reversing the excommunication of six members of the faithful in Honolulu is used in an attempt to legitimatize the SSPX. As most of you know, the St. Joseph Foundation assisted in defending the "Hawaii Six" and I can say that the status of the Society was not at issue in that case. What was at issue was the conduct of the defendants which, while admittedly blameworthy in some respects, did not constitute schism. The records of the case show that the former Bishop of Honolulu, Most Rev. Joseph Ferrario, tried to use penal law to silence those six Catholics who were calling the attention of the public to what they perceived as the bishop’s follies and misdeeds. Cardinal Ratzinger has never explicitly or implicitly approved of the actions of the SSPX.

 

The SSPX and the Internal Crisis in the Church

 

I know that the Church is undergoing a terrible internal crisis. So does the SSPX, but I think our common understanding ends there. The St. Joseph Foundation now receives requests for assistance at the rate of over 2,000 per year and we know as well as anyone else just what faithful Catholics have to endure. Still, even if we cannot help them, I am confident that the vast majority will manage to bear their sufferings without refusing "submission to the Roman Pontiff or communion with the members of the Church subject to him" (c. 751).

If I may impose on our readers outside the United States just one more time, I will close with a final American example which I personally remember. During World War II, the former heavyweight boxing champion, Joe Louis, was drafted into the army. When the "Brown Bomber" arrived at the induction station, a reporter asked him if he did not think it unfair that he was forced to serve in the army of a country in which his people had suffered and were suffering so many injustices. Louis thought for a moment and said: "There’s nothing wrong with this country that Hitler can fix."

I am by no means equating Archbishop Lefebvre with Adolph Hitler or the SSPX with the National Socialist Party, but the analogy remains an apt one. Terrible things are happening in the Church, but I don’t see anything that the Society of St. Pius X can fix.

    



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To: ninenot
SSPX is a clear and present danger to the Roman Catholic Church and should be treated as such where necessary.

How? If it wasn't for them we wouldn't have the Indult.

I just don't see the need to demonize them like so many people do here. There are much bigger threats to deal with, like the exodus of Catholics to non-Catholic churches and religions.

SSPX is a minor issue that will be resolved once both sides drop the name-calling and prideful behavior. It's like two estranged siblings arguing over who Mom likes best.

21 posted on 04/12/2003 11:15:31 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Sorry, your take is erroneous.

SSPX is schismatic and its followers are flirting with schism.

To repeat: there was NO excuse for people in Lincoln to "flee" to the SSPX Masses--except that they wanted to leave the Church. ALL the Old Rite Masses anyone could ask for were available in Lincoln Diocese.

Wrong is wrong and you can't un-make it so.

I do have a number of friends and acquaintances who are SSPX adherents, and I am sorry that they have chosen to leave the Church--but they did, and that's that.

BB's job is to KEEP the flock--not chase it. On the other hand, he cannot keep those who would rather flee.
22 posted on 04/12/2003 6:05:57 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: ninenot
Sorry, your take is erroneous.

Uh, no.

SSPX is schismatic and its followers are flirting with schism.

Do you consider the evangelicals schismatic? How about the Eastern systems? Because I assure you they attract far more Catholics than SSPX. They are the major threat to Catholicism today, not estranged spiritual siblings.

This article is seven years old first of all, and posting it was designed to stir the pot and inflame tensions here. A lot has changed in the past seven years. Narses cited a letter above which expressly states that attending an SSPX Mass is allowed in the event one does not have access to an appropriate Mass. While this may not be the case in Bishop B's diocese it is the case in most other dioceses. Regardless, that wasn't even my point and it's not my place to stand in judgement of them.

ROME has stated it is acceptable to attend SSPX Masses in certain circumstances and even contribute to the collection. My point was and still is that it is laughable to call SSPX a major threat to the Church. It is a MINOR issue. If people are leaving union with Rome for whereever, SSPX, fundamentalism, New Age, WHATEVER, it behooves Rome to take a long look in the mirror, discover why and fix the problems rather than attacking the people who leave.

23 posted on 04/12/2003 7:03:37 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: ninenot
And again, if it wasn't for the SSPX the Traditional Mass would not exist today. There would be no FSSP. There would be no Indult.

I refuse to cast stones at them.
24 posted on 04/12/2003 7:05:58 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: ninenot
I of course disagree. It's not that I don't believe that there are enemies to the right; it's simply that I have difficulty becoming upset over Roman Catholics that I probably could not distinguish from MY Catholic ancestors. What is it exactly that they believe Liturgically, that my grandfather didn't believe? Why does the Church bend over backwards for Protestants, Jews, Muslims and Bhuddists and give these guys the shaft? It simply seems uncharitable.
25 posted on 04/12/2003 7:34:58 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Fides quaerens intellectum.)
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To: NYer
This long screed is intellectually muddled. It charges the SSPX is trying to have it both ways by claiming to be traditionally Catholic while supporting disobedience to the Pope.

This is an easily discredited claim. After all, the Pope only represents the Church when he is in harmony with its tradition. If he departs from Catholicism, he no longer can claim to be owed obedience and it would be quite proper to disobey him, especially if he is doing demonstrable harm to the Church and its deposit of faith. This can be proven in a hundred different ways.

I suspect much of the confusion about SSPX derives from the latae sententiae excommunication pronouncement coming out of the Vatican. The word was gleefully spread about by the enemies of Catholic Tradition. But such an excommunication would have been valid automatically only if the subject charged with schism actually intended to perpetrate a schismatic act.

It is well known that such a break was never intended by Archbishop Lefebvre who never wished in any way to set up a parallel religion with a new body of doctrine, but merely wished to retain the beliefs and practices Catholics had believed and practiced for twenty centuries. Nor did his newly consecrated bishops usurp any other bishop's jurisdiction--such as the Chinese do routinely. The charge was therefore false.

It is true Archb. Lefebvre and his newly ordained bishops were disobedient--but disobedience is not schism any more than a disobedient child thereby denies his family. The charge on the surface is ridiculous.

It is true that in a letter JnPII affirmed an automatic excommunication had been incurred and declared Lefebvre guilty of schism--but that does not make the declaration correct. The problem is the letter contradicts the Pope's own Canon Law which expressly permitted a subject to disobey a superior's command in a time of emergency.

Nor is it necessary, according to Canon Law, for the subject to have been right about such a State of Necessity, as it is called. He need only have believed in good conscience that such a state existed in the Church. Archbishop Lefebvre availed himself of this canon, sincerely believing the Church to be in state of crisis, and so disobeyed in good conscience. That he was, in fact, right about this has been proven over the years. It was the Pope who had been wrong--as he has been about much else in his conducting of Church affairs.
26 posted on 04/12/2003 10:02:11 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: NYer
Bump for later.
27 posted on 04/13/2003 12:12:43 AM PDT by Robert Drobot
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To: ultima ratio
Bravo for your Post # 26!!! Thank you!!!
28 posted on 04/13/2003 12:24:34 AM PDT by Robert Drobot
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; BlackElk
Let's try an analogy and see if that helps.

Hussein was a threat to the USA. Evangelicals are a threat to the Church (mutatis mutandis..)

But USA citizens KNOW that Hussein was a threat--he was a 'foreign power,' external to the country.

Now when the CPUSA had its people in the Federal Government during the presidency of FDR, the threat to the USA was more significant than the threat posed by Joe Stalin? Why? Because we took for granted (erroneously) that US citizens were all 'on our side.'

Similarly, Catholics recognize the Evangelicals as threats--they are 'outsiders.' But the FAR more significant threat is from 'insiders,' validly (but illicitly) ordained priests and Bishops who we "think" are on our side.

This applies, by the way, to dissident Bishops such as Weakland, Mahony, Bernardin, and their ilk EQUALLY, to the right-thinking Catholic.

Hope that helps.

Re-stating: in the SPECIFIC case of Lincoln, SSPX was more a threat than the Evangelicals. They were the wolves in sheep's clothing. BB is right.
29 posted on 04/13/2003 5:52:31 AM PDT by ninenot
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To: TradicalRC
I agree with you that various Bishops and Cardinals are jerks. Doesn't make SSPX correct. I attended the Old Rite 'unauthorized,' and my father's Funeral Mass was an 'unauthorized' Requiem. At the time, there were no alternatives, and Weakland was in power here.

I am convinced that I was justified in my previous actions, although I will learn the real answer within the next 30 or 40 years from St. Pete.

I'll try to send you the results. Be paying attention.
30 posted on 04/13/2003 5:56:09 AM PDT by ninenot
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To: ultima ratio; NYer; BlackElk
Yup.

YOPIOTradition.

We'll have to add the category. YOPIOS, YOPIOT.
31 posted on 04/13/2003 5:57:30 AM PDT by ninenot
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; ninenot; Cap'n Crunch
Someone who makes the mistake of leaving the only Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself (that would be the Roman Catholic Church) to become a Presbyterian or a Missouri Synod Lutheran or an independent Evangelical or Pentecostal or simply to hang out at home develping his or her own preferred ideas as to the meaning of Scripture through five or six prisms of translations not guaranteed by the Vicar of Christ on Earth directly or indirectly at least may be honored for the personal integrity of NOT claiming to be Roman Catholics.

Not so our schismatics. They want the right to rant and rave against legitimate Church authority, to undermine the authority of the papacy, to make a career of drawing upon the papacy and the Church the worst forms of vile hatred witnessed in centuries and justify it all as does UR on the basis that some monsignor in the Vatican issued a document conceding the validity (never in question) of SSPX Masses and even the acceptability of contributing to the expenses of same MODESTLY (all essentially a 16 centuries old rejection of the Donatist heresy of the 4th Century that held the Masses of unworthy and sinful priests as invalid) and that such misbehavior as encouraging the schismatics ius justified among schismatics so long as they can delude themselves that there is some sort of emergency (in their minds the convenient availability only of the normative Mass of the Church). They have such a right civilly. They can be atheists, Zoroastrians or devotees of Astarte if they wish, as far as the law is concerned.

What the schismatics do not have a right to do is to dishonestly scandalize others by claiming to be Catholic while engaging in rank disobedience and defiance of legitimate authority. SSPX people are not attacked for leaving. They are attacked for leaving while fraudulently claiming to have stayed. As the living saint of Lincoln, Nebraska says: They cannot have it both ways.

The SSPX bishops have been excommunicated as was their self-important founder and schismatic-in-chief Marcel Lefebvre, who, now dead, has likely learned the truth the hard way.

SSPX is not major by way of number of adherents. There are only so many gullible cranks and eccentrics available to it. Rather, as their now dead schismatic-in-chief Marcel well understood, the creation of another illicit line of eccommunicated bishops and the sort of priests they will ordain is the worst attack that can be levelled at the Church. Like their Masses, the consecrations of their bishops and the ordination of their priests are valid but UNLAWFUL and perpetuate a spirit of rebellion first seen when Lucifer informed God "non serviam".

In the spirit of Lucifer, they should adopt "non serviam" as part of the SSPX coat of arms, be honest enough to admit that it is their inspiration, and stop sullying the good name of Catholic by their ridiculous charade of claiming that defient disobedience of the Successor of Peter is somehow "traditional" Catholicism. As we well know, it is not.

32 posted on 04/13/2003 9:58:40 AM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! The concept of a schismatic Catholic is a contradiction in terms.)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; ultima ratio; ninenot; Cap'n Crunch; St.Chuck
You are buying the schismatic mantra that somehow there would be no Tridentine Mases or Indult without the schismatic behavior of Marcel, which is based on their infernal resistance to John Paul II's rightful and praiseworthy excommunication of Marcel.

There have been hundreds of causes of conservative dissatisfaction within the Roman Catholic Church, most particularly Benedict XV (who cancelled Pope St. Pius X's admirable purge of the Modernist heretics) and John XXIII (where to begin, where to end?) but all of the schismatic fire is saved for the one and only pope to excommunicate the rebellious Marcel who massacred his own vow of obedience.

Chesterton write that some people wrongfully assume that those who reject the truth will believe nothing when actually they will believe anything. SSPX is a good example. Don't cast stones at them. Join them. Or become a Gaia worshipper. But, if you are not going to be in obedience to the pope, don't call yourself Catholic and confuse others as you have been confused. Scandal is also grave matter.

John Paul II is pope. You are not. I am not. Ultima Ratio is not. Learn to live with it.

33 posted on 04/13/2003 10:11:12 AM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! The concept of a schismatic Catholic is a contradiction in terms.)
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To: BlackElk; Canticle_of_Deborah; ultima ratio; ninenot; Cap'n Crunch; St.Chuck
In addition, CantDeb--you give very short shrift to Una Voce, a group of European and American intellectuals, who largely have remained within the Catholic Church.

While I grant you that SSPX certainly (albeit insolently) pushed the ball, the heavy lifting was done by UV.

34 posted on 04/13/2003 10:27:56 AM PDT by ninenot
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To: TradicalRC; ninenot; Canticle_of_Deborah; Cap'n Crunch; St.Chuck; saradippity; american colleen; ...
"Why does the Church... give these guys the shaft?"

It might be their attitude or their inability to keep a civil tongue in their heads or their incessant carping and complaining against the pope or their invention of non-existent "crises" to justify their defiance or disobedience or impudence. Maybe it's the willingness to put words in the pope's mouth as to foreign policy matters or to accept the AP's alleged paraphrase whose accuracy the Vatican denies. Maybe, just maybe, they are not getting the shaft or even one tenth of the punishment they deserve. Protestants, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists make no claim to be Catholic. The pope has no obligation to accommodate the enemy within.

Here is how to distinguish your ancestors from SSPX. Your ancestors were probably not in the habit of vilifying (not just disagreeing with/not just criticizing) the pope. Your ancestors probably did not take pride in disobeying the pope. In the event that they did any of these things, the fact that they were your ancestors does not insulate them from the consequences and they knew that.

Finally, God is love. Therefore, God is charity (another word for love). Yet God is just and he sends some whom He loves to hell because they have insisted on such justice by their behavior. It is not uncharitable to refuse to indulge the fiction that SSPXers claim when they claim to be Catholics while rejecting the authority of the Church itself. It is charitable to insist that they accept the unvarnished truth or the truth with the bark on.

35 posted on 04/13/2003 10:28:15 AM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! The concept of a schismatic Catholic is a contradiction in terms.)
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To: ninenot
The "heavy lifting" was done by Una Voce? That is the silliest statement I've heard you make yet. It played a part, but the soul of the traditional movement was Archbishop Lefebvre and those who followed him.
36 posted on 04/13/2003 10:43:18 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ninenot
In addition, CantDeb--you give very short shrift to Una Voce, a group of European and American intellectuals, who largely have remained within the Catholic Church.

Do I? That's interesting, because I am a member. I don't remember mentioning Una Voce on this thread at all. Last time I checked their website it gave updates and prayers on the state of SSPX/Rome reconciliation, not hateful screeches towards estranged siblings.

37 posted on 04/13/2003 11:19:59 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: BlackElk
Let's see if I understand this: we are not to judge the Church based on a few individuals that reject the Real Presence or engage in pederasty or practice birth control or ignore the Magisterium, but we can do it in redards to the SSPX. You have failed to distinguish the SSPX from the Roman Catholic Church in your criticism. I specifically asked how the SSPX differed LITURGICALLY from my ancestors as that appears to be the essential beef that they have with the Church (that THEIR ancestors came from). So if you could refrain from an ad hominem approach, I would appreciate if you could tell me how the Mass that my forbears considered the holiest thing this side of Heaven becomes forbidden in some diocese within a few decades. Surely, one can concede that it is reasonable to be looking askance at the heirarchy and reasonable as well to be entertaining serious doubts.
38 posted on 04/13/2003 11:23:17 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Fides quaerens intellectum.)
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To: BlackElk
You are buying the schismatic mantra that somehow there would be no Tridentine Mases or Indult without the schismatic behavior of Marcel,

Except for isolated cases, no one else was celebrating it on a consistent basis until 1988. The FSSP, one of the largest promoters of the Traditional Mass, was founded by SSPX priests who reconciled with Rome in 1988. Who else other than the SSPX was guarding the Traditional Mass before 1988?

SSPX is a good example. Don't cast stones at them. Join them.

Thanks, but I wouldn't fit in there.

But, if you are not going to be in obedience to the pope, don't call yourself Catholic

Where did I disobey the Pope? Refusing to hurl insults and cast judgement on others is disobedience?

39 posted on 04/13/2003 11:33:39 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: ninenot
Please. Tradition is real. Why not have a category called YOPDOT(Your Own Personal Denial Of Tradition)?
40 posted on 04/13/2003 11:36:05 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Fides quaerens intellectum.)
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