Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
This is a touchy subject. While it is wrong to say God acts on a whim, it is not wrong to say that it may appear to us that way.
We can certainly say, as the Calvinist do, that God acts and selects based on His own criteria, which we do not understand. But it is not like He is being random. He has a plan.
SD
These Parables are wonderful proof of predestination and election...not a mythical hole in mans heart that is searching for God.
Note that the coin does not go looking for it's owner it is helpless and inert ..It does not care who's pocket it is in. It is only of value to the owner
The parable of the lost sheep is similar..the sheep is a dumb animal. It does not even know it is lost. It is not looking for its owner..it has no hole in its heart . It states clearly that the sheep belong to the shepherd..they are not goats that will change into sheep they are sheep...and when He speaks they know his voice, because they are already his. The shepherd has to call to them ..they do not go looking for Him...
and, after seeing our pathetic surroundings, where even the food of pigs start to look good to us, we come to the realization that there has to be something, somewhere, that is better that what we've got now. So, like the son who comes begging back to his father in the parable, we too come begging for something, anything, that will satisfy our needs.
That was not a stranger that came looking to have a nice warm spot to sleep and 4 squares a day...this was a son ..he belonged to the Father .This parable speaks of the backslider and the security of the believer. ..it says nothing about a hole in a heart seeking after God..
From there I would point to Romans chapters one and two, which I had mentioned before. We are all given two lights of knowledge of God, the light of creation (Romans 1:20) and the light of conscience (Romans 2:14,15). This is everybody now, after the fall, from the tribesmen of Africa to the teacher at Berkley, all have some inner knowledge of God.
You need to reread Romans 1,2 and 3...It is very clear ..everyman is WITHOUT excuse..every man will be held to the "light" he has been given..that will be the source of his judgement..
So the Jew is LOST unless he keeps the law PERFECTLY . The heathan is LOST unless he keeps the law written on his heart PERFECTLY
The inability of any man to keep the law PERFECTLY condemns all mankind
That is why we need a Savior..that is the point of Pauls letter to the Romans ..YOU need Christ, you can not save yourself. You will stand in judgemet and without the covering of rightousness of Christ you are LOST..it says nothing about man seeking Christ or a hole in His heart
Yes the Bible is about the restoration of the relationship of God and man..the whole Bible is about Jesus from beginning to end...but it is not about man seeking God. The fall saw to that ..man is like Adam after the fall....
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
The story of the bible is mans resistance to God..his desire for self help and hiding from God not running to Him
If you find a scripture on the hole in mans heart that is seeking God let me know..Back to Romans
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
I wasn’t trying to say that Calvinism was “inconsistent with the preaching of the Gospel.” What I was trying to point out was that just like jude24 was making a comment about Arminianism, an Arminiast(?) could make the same claim about Calvinism, if you get my meaning.
Well, sure, an Arminian can make whatever claim he wants. He just has to lie about Calvinism first to make his claim.
Like I said, I fall in between the Calvinist and Arminiast camps. I believe both are true. ‘But how can that be’ you ask. Well, I will tell you.
If Arminianism is man's perspective and Calvinism is God's perspective as you say, which "mind" would you rather have? Would you rather have the immature mind of a son who doesn't speak for his father or would you rather have the mind of a son who speaks as if he is a replica of his father:
Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have no known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say 'Show us the Father'?
And the Modalists thinks that Jesus is the Father. He just doesn't think like a Jew for this is a remarkably Jewish thing to say. (Perhaps this is where Jesse is going with his Issachar comment)
The choice is yours; you can continue on in the childish things, or you can begin to grow up and come into full agreement with the Father in all things. When you were born of God, when you received Him, you were adopted into the family of God, but you are not yet fully a son of God, speaking and acting with the full Authority of the Father:
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become sons of God,... who were born... of God.
If you have received Him, meaning if you have been born of God, then you have the authority to become a son of God, speaking as if you are a replica of the Father. The choice is yours, but here is how the Son of God speaks:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."
"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."
"But there are some of you who do not believe. Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
Sorry I yelled
No, He didn't. Check out my #938. I think I have this settled now with RF's help.
Sorry I yelled
Thank you Mom, I really appreciate that. *hug*
God doesn't need to give me anything.
Yes, He can do as He pleases, it's in His job description. ;^)
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Note that the coin does not go looking for it's owner it is helpless and inert ..It does not care who's pocket it is in. It is only of value to the owner
The parable of the lost sheep is similar..the sheep is a dumb animal. It does not even know it is lost. It is not looking for its owner..it has no hole in its heart . It states clearly that the sheep belong to the shepherd..they are not goats that will change into sheep they are sheep...and when He speaks they know his voice, because they are already his. The shepherd has to call to them ..they do not go looking for Him...
and, after seeing our pathetic surroundings, where even the food of pigs start to look good to us, we come to the realization that there has to be something, somewhere, that is better that what we've got now. So, like the son who comes begging back to his father in the parable, we too come begging for something, anything, that will satisfy our needs.
That was not a stranger that came looking to have a nice warm spot to sleep and 4 squares a day...this was a son ..he belonged to the Father .This parable speaks of the backslider and the security of the believer. ..it says nothing about a hole in a heart seeking after God..
Does the Calvinist Bible contain a different Prodigal Son story? In it, does the father go out after the son, and forcibly make him return?
Cause that's Calvinism. The Prodigal Son seems to hinge on the free will of the son, who leaves and then desires to return. Yes, the father will always rejoice when one returns. But the Father did not force irresistable grace on the son.
SD
If you notice, I only mentioned the parables of the coin and the sheep as a reference to the placement of the parable of the prodigal son. I did not mention them, in and of themselves, as any basis for my argument. So, everything you say here is fine, but has no bearing on the point I was trying to make about the parable of the prodigal son.
This parable speaks of the backslider and the security of the believer. ..it says nothing about a hole in a heart seeking after God..
You can pigeon-hole this parable down to merely one meaning if you like, however I think there are a lot of different levels it can be look at. Besides, if that parable is really only about the security of the believer, then it is a pretty lousy one.
The inability of any man to keep the law PERFECTLY condemns all mankind...That is why we need a Savior..that is the point of Pauls letter to the Romans ..YOU need Christ, you can not save yourself. You will stand in judgemet and without the covering of rightousness of Christ you are LOST..it says nothing about man seeking Christ or a hole in His heart.
What, are you related to Jessie, who also kept misrepresenting what I say? I have never once said that we do not need a Savior, I have never once said that I can save myself, I have never said that I can get by without the covering of righteousness of Christ. Sheeze.
If you find a scripture on the hole in mans heart that is seeking God let me know.
Never mind. You and your worldview are obviously very happy together. Good luck and God bless on your life together.
Cause that's Calvinism. The Prodigal Son seems to hinge on the free will of the son, who leaves and then desires to return. Yes, the father will always rejoice when one returns. But the Father did not force irresistable grace on the son.
Exactly.
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