Cubicleguy, Press the smilie face: 
Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
And do take care of my Harley. :)
BigMack
Cubicleguy, Press the smilie face:
That verse seems to be more problematic for the Calvinists since, as Xzins has pointed out, it shows a unbeliever with 'integrity of heart' and also that God is communicating with a spiritually dead man (corpse like)and the man is speaking with God!
A couple of observations. That Abimelech had 'integrity of the heart' in this one instance does not imply that he was totally guiltless before God. The text shows that that 'integrity of the heart' was the direct result of God's restraint. Radical depravity does not mean that man is as bad as he could be but that sin has affected all areas of God's life. God can appear to whomsoever he chooses. I would point oiut that Abram was a pagan when God first revealed Himself to him. The point of the passage is that God controls/restrains the sinful desires and will of men when it suits His purpose. Who are you or am I to tell Him he can't!!!
I'm headed to Utah to scrounge around in the desert, canyons and rocks.
No, Joseph was required to turn the plates back over to Moroni when his task was complete.This was convenient because there is no way to verify the translation. However the Book of Abraham is not quite so convenient.
Dr. Hugh Nibley demonstrated that the single papyrus fragment in question was from a pagan funerary text known as the "Book of Breathings" -- a work which evolved from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. The name "Book of Breathings" actually appears clearly on the fourth line of the text. When Professor Richard A. Parker, Chairman of the Department of Egyptology at Brown University, translated the papyrus, this is what he came up with:...this great pool of Khonsu [Osiris Hor, justified], born of Taykhebyt, a man likewise. After (his) two arms are [fast]ened to his breast, one wraps the Book of Breathings, which is with writing both inside and outside of it, with royal linen, it being placed (at) his left arm near his heart, this having been done at his wrapping and outside it. If this book be recited for him, then he will breathe like the soul[s of the gods] for ever and ever.From here.
So why should anyone trust the JST when there are tons on manuscript evidence that shows it to be an inferior translation????
Unless, of course, you value ink on paper more than a living oracle of God.
The point is ... a living oracle of God would have to have some pretty impressive credentials.
Think about it. What is there about Joseph (i.e. who he was, what he did, what he said, etc.) that modern-day christians should believe that he is an oracle from God.
Why Joseph and not Rev. Sung Yung Moon?
Why Joseph and not David Koresh?
Why Joseph and not Jim Jones?
Why should we believe Joseph?
Unless, of course, you value ink on paper more than a living oracle of God.
The point is ... a living oracle of God would have to have some pretty impressive credentials.
Think about it. What is there about Joseph (i.e. who he was, what he did, what he said, etc.) that modern-day christians should believe that he is an oracle from God.
Why Joseph and not Rev. Sung Yung Moon?
Why Joseph and not David Koresh?
Why Joseph and not Jim Jones?
Why should we believe Joseph?
...Assuming, of course, that the gospel accounts are true.
Gosh, just because I happen to believe the Lord when He says that His kingdom is not of this world, doesn't mean that I have spiritualized prophecy.
Let me see. You believe he is Lord based on a spiritualized interpretation of prophecy, and then because you believe he is Lord, you accept the spiritualized interpretation which "supports" it. Sounds circular to me.
The prophets said that the messiah would bring world peace. World peace has been noticably lacking the past 2000 years. How do you account for this? And while you're at it, perhaps you can point out the precise passage of the Hebrew scriptures where it prophecies a second coming of the messiah.
My point is that you cannot see the kingdom of God because you are spiritually dead.
I know that your faith depends on your believing this. Otherwise you might have to consider the possibility that Jesus was really not the messiah.
I don't think that you are an idolator, and I have explained my reasoning to you. If you, however, choose to label yourself as such, that's up to you.
If He is, then you are in over your head and utterly at His mercy.
He isn't. And I have no fear that I am wrong. My trust is entirely in 
, who alone is Father, Lord, Savior and Redeemer.
Incomplete though I will finish...When Gods grace washes over him :>)
AMEN!!!
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