Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
You would think that by now I would have known that what I said would be misunderstood, lol! However, thank you for your words of encouragement. God never desired for us to have a relationship with Him only within the confines of humanly constructed beliefs, but if you try telling that to some people, well, you might as well be burned at the stake for such heresy.
Yes. And for Israel he chose the Kohenim.
Since Melchizanek preceeded all your Levites and Kohanim, his order of the priesthood takes precedence
Since the Sinaitic Covenant preceded your "new covenant", it takes precedence.
and as Christians we believe that Christ is our great high priest after the order of Melchizadek.
That's fine, believe whatever you want. If your mother is Jewish, though, it would trouble me if you believed that Jesus is God.
Christ's spirit, which is the spirit of God, takes precedence over his earthly birth, whatever his line of descent is.
So the Hebrew scriptures can just be tossed out the window?
You do not fool me. Just from our little interchange I know that you neither read the Word nor understand it. The fact that you confuse the virgin birth with a human woman proves to me that you have not been to school. So long. I suggest you get offline pronto and hit the books.
Earlier on this thread, Jesse made the claim that he is of Jewish ancestry. He hasn't clarified whether or not his mother is Jewish.
Second, he professes to be a Christian, and according to his own moral standard bearing false witness is wrong.
Third, establishing courts of justice is one of the Seven Laws of Noah that are binding on all mankind. Subsidiary to this is that false witness is wrong.
Thoroughly.
Have you taken instruction in them, or have you just assumed Hebrew identity to be contrary?
What an odd accusation to make. Look junior, I've been on this board for almost five years. You are welcome to inquire with any of the other regulars as to my bona fides.
A Jew is more than being born of mother and father -- if you were one, you'd know that. It's more than physical, but a spiritual identity.
Not either/or but both/and.
You do not fool me. Just from our little interchange I know that you neither read the Word nor understand it.
Uh huh. Another person who thinks that anyone who disagrees with his own particular interpretation of scripture must be ignorant. You're mighty free with passing judgment on someone that you don't even know.
The fact that you confuse the virgin birth with a human woman proves to me that you have not been to school.
I gave my reasons. If you think that I am wrong, refute me. Go on, give it a try. Otherwise you are all hat, no cattle.
So long. I suggest you get offline pronto and hit the books.
And I suggest you read more and post less. You display an astonishing level of presumption.
Really? Show me. I'm looking for world peace, universal knowledge of God, return of all the Jews to Israel, and the rebuilt temple. I don't see them anywhere. The throne of David remains empty at this time, your spiritualization of concrete prophecies nonwithstanding.
I suggest you reread it. ponyespresso made no equivalency between pagan belief and belief in the God of Abraham.
The commandment against idolatry is one of the seven laws. However, the standard as applied for what constitutes idolatry is not the same. Unless you are a forthright tritheist, you are not an idolator. Trinitarian Christians believe in one God (one Being); they are just confused as to how many persons He is. So it is still monotheistic, although not as cleanly so as one finds in Judaism.
Well what was I thinking!? Of course you now have a degree in something from FR.
To your great relief, I am going. I have a class in Jeremiah. In fact, I have been diligently going to Hebrew school for a long long time. Of course, my education can't compare with the FR degree though. So long, faker.
Please post for everyone exactly where I posted anything even close to suggesting that all baal worship is equal to Christian worship. Here, let me help...
from my post 459: "Now, before I go further I of course need to make the disclaimer that I do not believe that any of these religions will lead a person directly to Jesus Christ and a saving faith in Him."
from my post 475: "First, like I stated in my disclaimer, I don't believe that these will lead a person directly to Jesus Christ (the One True God) and a saving faith in Him. Of course I believe that God Himself has revealed Himself to His creation through various means (i.e. creation itself, Jesus Christ His Son, the Holy Sprit, the Bible as the Word of God, etc...) Not my intention to suggest that world religions contain the "truth"."
Show me exactly where you think I am going astray here. And, if you can't, then stop accusing me of things that simply are not true.
Put up or shut up.
My point, O sanctimonious one, was that people here know me. Your claim that I am "faking" being Jewish is insulting and absurd.
In fact, I have been diligently going to Hebrew school for a long long time.
Uh huh. You claim to be Jewish, and accuse me of faking it. And yet you curiously resist answering a few simple questions. Is your mother Jewish, and what sort of education in Judaism have you had?
So long, faker.
My experience is that people tend to accuse others of the weaknesses that they themselves possess. You were very quick today to accuse me of being a "fake Jew". Which suggests to me that you have some insecurities of your own on this subject.
While you are studying scripture, why don't you look up Deuteronomy 13.
Except that a man is born from above, he cannot even see the kingdom of God. Sorry, but I can't help your blindness.
Very well, you can't show me. I didn't expect you to, given the manner in which you have spiritualized prophecy.
Yes, the Jews in Jerusalem 2000 years ago were looking for the same thing as well.
Yep. They read the scriptures and saw what they literally said.
The problem is that you are ignoring the prophecies about the Messiah's need to suffer for His people.
Isaiah 53 is not a messianic prophecy.
Do you, or do you not, believe in your heart that the trinitarian God you worship is the God of Abraham?
Yes, if you were worshipping Satan then I would consider that idolatrous. But I don't think you are doing so.
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